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    1. #1

      EVs and Battery Tech Discussion

      Quote Originally Posted by 97redz3 View Post
      I agree - it's about skating to where the puck will be vs. where it is now. Globally, CO2 restrictions and fuel economy standards are pushing the entire industry towards electrification ... not just Volvo. It makes sense; the technological barriers have mostly fallen. Toss in real performance advantages (better acceleration, better handling due to lower Cg), less complex manufacturing and servicing, and lower cost of ownership and the future is bright for electrics.
      Electric has its benefits and itís definitely ďfasterĒ however worse for environment as a hole and with range itís currently available itís worthless for 99% of Americans.

      All these rules and regulations are only to make more cash... same as with hands free devices that now data shows regardless if you on ur phone or on hands free device you are 4x more like to have an car accident. National safety council shows 25% of crashes involve cell phones 21% phone conversations and only 4% txting.
      Think about it phone in hand txt is only 4% and a phone call regardless if itís hands free or not itís 21% but almost every state pushed hands free making you buy new cars with it or a device. Plus making money by tickets just because you hold the phone in ur hand.

      Anyway I know thatís off topic but itís all about selling you more stuff ďelectric is betterĒ you know whatís the best for environment? Definitely not manufacturing more new cars and batteries. If the environment was the main purpose in design cars would not need new brakes after 5k miles and would lest longer, be more serviceable, and easily repairable.

      The best thing we can do for the planet is stop buying things we donít need.
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    3. #2
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Electric has its benefits and itís definitely ďfasterĒ however worse for environment as a hole and with range itís currently available itís worthless for 99% of Americans.
      I've just got to ask, where did you get this? The majority of what I've seen as far as actual studies show that electric cars are a net win for the environment (even in areas that burn coal for a electricity, though much less so.) In fact the only one I remember seeing that didn't say that was sponsored by an oil company, so somewhat suspect. And worthless for 99% of Americans? How so? Most commutes are not that long - I think the average is under 20 miles - so even with the PHEV that won't get you both ways on electricity you'd be cutting out a lot of the gas you burn. Please help me to understand where you're coming from here.
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    4. #3
      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      I've just got to ask, where did you get this? The majority of what I've seen as far as actual studies show that electric cars are a net win for the environment (even in areas that burn coal for a electricity, though much less so.) In fact the only one I remember seeing that didn't say that was sponsored by an oil company, so somewhat suspect. And worthless for 99% of Americans? How so? Most commutes are not that long - I think the average is under 20 miles - so even with the PHEV that won't get you both ways on electricity you'd be cutting out a lot of the gas you burn. Please help me to understand where you're coming from here.
      Sure, first you canít consider just the fuel vs electric but however the entire manufacturing process and mining for materials required for batteries manufacturing and itís transport. Then also add that you canít recycle batteries. Remember the pictures of trees growing in a car and even engine block in a tree trunk? Try the same with toxic batteries.

      Not to mention the live span of a battery. Toyota owners already know the pain when the batteries are dead and you have to spend 10-15k for a new battery and guess what happens to the old one...

      Now to all that you can add how Inefficient the cars are as you drive around with a 1500lbs batteries regardless if itís fully charged or empty.


      As for average itís 30 miles a day but thatís average with all licensed drivers so all the millions of old people that donít drive at all are included.
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    6. #4
      Junior Member DrFunkelstein's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Electric has its benefits and it’s definitely “faster” however worse for environment as a hole
      This really isn’t true. Even the more conservative estimates give the edge to electric and that’s factoring in all points in the supply chain. It’s not like electric is environmental magic at the moment but it is definitely better than fossil fuels and it will only get better as the infrastructure improves. However, I do agree that the very best thing is to minimize consumption, buy used, etc. No argument there.

    7. #5
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Sure, first you canít consider just the fuel vs electric but however the entire manufacturing process and mining for materials required for batteries manufacturing and itís transport. Then also add that you canít recycle batteries. Remember the pictures of trees growing in a car and even engine block in a tree trunk? Try the same with toxic batteries.

      Not to mention the live span of a battery. Toyota owners already know the pain when the batteries are dead and you have to spend 10-15k for a new battery and guess what happens to the old one...

      Now to all that you can add how Inefficient the cars are as you drive around with a 1500lbs batteries regardless if itís fully charged or empty.


      As for average itís 30 miles a day but thatís average with all licensed drivers so all the millions of old people that donít drive at all are included.
      The studies that I've seen are full life cycle of the car. They acknowledge that there is a negative effect in the manufacture of the batteries - no question there - and in their disposal. And electric power for cars is still less polluting. Now, how much varies on where you live. Where I live is 100% hydroelectric + individual solar cells so the carbon footprint is much reduced (not 0% but much reduced.)

      And, no, the commute distance I was speaking of was strictly that, commuting, so not people who don't commute (like me - telecommuting doesn't count, though it affect other statistics.) I should, though, have mentioned that it was
      Now, as far as reducing consumption? Sure, first thing. That's one big reason we keep our cars for 10+ years since a lot of energy and pollution goes into making a car so we amortize it out over the length of ownership.
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    8. #6
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFunkelstein View Post
      This really isnít true. Even the more conservative estimates give the edge to electric and thatís factoring in all points in the supply chain. Itís not like electric is environmental magic at the moment but it is definitely better than fossil fuels and it will only get better as the infrastructure improves. However, I do agree that the very best thing is to minimize consumption, buy used, etc. No argument there.
      Just consider the fact that you canít recycle old batteries. You canít just recycle the car like current gasoline car. This alone means the environmental hit will be higher bs gasoline.

      Not to mention ďLithium mining, needed to build the lithium ion batteries at the heart of today's EVs, has also been connected to other kinds of environmental harm. There have been mass fish kills related to lithium mining in Tibet, for example. The freshwater supply is being consumed by mines in South America's lithium-rich region. Even in North America, where mining regulations are strict, harsh chemicals are used to extract the valuable metal.Ē

      Iím not against the electric car. Love the power and how quiet they are but Iím not gonna blindly say that they are better for the environment.

      One of many interesting reads (my knowledge is however internal to the process) thatís all Iím going to say

      https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/e...rint-1.5394126
      Last edited by Kamil; 09-17-2020 at 10:12 PM.
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    9. #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      The studies that I've seen are full life cycle of the car. They acknowledge that there is a negative effect in the manufacture of the batteries - no question there - and in their disposal. And electric power for cars is still less polluting. Now, how much varies on where you live. Where I live is 100% hydroelectric + individual solar cells so the carbon footprint is much reduced (not 0% but much reduced.)

      And, no, the commute distance I was speaking of was strictly that, commuting, so not people who don't commute (like me - telecommuting doesn't count, though it affect other statistics.) I should, though, have mentioned that it was
      Now, as far as reducing consumption? Sure, first thing. That's one big reason we keep our cars for 10+ years since a lot of energy and pollution goes into making a car so we amortize it out over the length of ownership.


      That is the best thing you can do. I hope I can keep my car for 10+ years
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    10. #8
      Junior Member 97redz3's Avatar
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      Good 2020 paper published by Boston Consulting Group on electrification:

      https://www.bcg.com/publications/202...-tipping-point
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    11. #9
      Quote Originally Posted by 97redz3 View Post
      Good 2020 paper published by Boston Consulting Group on electrification:

      https://www.bcg.com/publications/202...-tipping-point
      im sure its not a "one way" and "half trues" document as its from people managing and operating in automotive manufacturing pushing for the EV cars.

      Why dont we ask Apple and see who makes the best phones?




      Xavier Mosquet
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      Xavier Mosquet is a core member of The Boston Consulting Group's Automotive sector. He is the founder of the firm's Detroit office and was co-leader of BCG's global automotive sector from 2008 to 2014.

      out of the respect on the subject i will stop posting on this. we can start a new post in general on EV cars but im done posting on this subject in this post.
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    12. #10
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      If you guys are interested in learning more about what happens to EV battery packs after their in-vehicle use is finished, check out this company: http://www.spiersnewtechnologies.com/energy-storage

      I visited their facility when I was working at a car manufacturer on an upcoming EV. My job at that time was planning aftersales for electrified vehicles. The EV battery packs will be used to create stationary energy storage units as a way to extend their life, before they go to actual recycling. You can't recover a lot of the rare earth materials from recycling automotive LiB packs. The process is very expensive, so instead of going directly to recycling, they'll be used to build stationary energy storage units.

      The car battery packs are very expensive (sometimes, 40% of the vehicle MSRP is the battery pack), so life-cycle-mgmt will be required to get better ROI, and extend the assets life-cycle. It won't make make any sense to recycle them right after in-vehicle use.

    13. #11
      Quote Originally Posted by AJS1KR View Post
      If you guys are interested in learning more about what happens to EV battery packs after their in-vehicle use is finished, check out this company: http://www.spiersnewtechnologies.com/energy-storage

      I visited their facility when I was working at a car manufacturer on an upcoming EV. My job at that time was planning aftersales for electrified vehicles. The EV battery packs will be used to create stationary energy storage units as a way to extend their life, before they go to actual recycling. You can't recover a lot of the rare earth materials from recycling automotive LiB packs. The process is very expensive, so instead of going directly to recycling, they'll be used to build stationary energy storage units.

      The car battery packs are very expensive (sometimes, 40% of the vehicle MSRP is the battery pack), so life-cycle-mgmt will be required to get better ROI, and extend the assets life-cycle. It won't make make any sense to recycle them right after in-vehicle use.
      Almost none of the current batteries are recycled or reused. They were never designed to be easily disassembled or recycle or re used.

      If the batteries failed in the car there are not going to be re used. If the car got damaged in a car accident the batteries are not going to be reused. No one is going to place, sell, or reuse a battery that could explode at any time.

      All this ďwe will used them for solarĒ is a dream or a 1% application when the batteries are okay but somehow the car is not.

      Even Tesla is not purchasing, reusing, recycle the batteries.

      I know I said this before but really Iím done posting on this sorry for taking us off track

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...tery-recycling
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    14. #12
      Junior Member DrFunkelstein's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Almost none of the current batteries are recycled or reused. They were never designed to be easily disassembled or recycle or re used.

      If the batteries failed in the car there are not going to be re used. If the car got damaged in a car accident the batteries are not going to be reused. No one is going to place, sell, or reuse a battery that could explode at any time.

      All this “we will used them for solar” is a dream or a 1% application when the batteries are okay but somehow the car is not.

      Even Tesla is not purchasing, reusing, recycle the batteries.

      I know I said this before but really I’m done posting on this sorry for taking us off track

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...tery-recycling
      The point is that right now, electric has a lower overall impact than fossil fuels. Battery recycling is an issue but at least there is a likelihood that will improve as the overall infrastructure does. Mainly it’s just not really true that electric is actually worse for the environment than fossil fuels, even when considering all the issues that come along with ev production.

    15. #13
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFunkelstein View Post
      The point is that right now, electric has a lower overall impact than fossil fuels. Battery recycling is an issue but at least there is a likelihood that will improve as the overall infrastructure does. Mainly itís just not really true that electric is actually worse for the environment than fossil fuels, even when considering all the issues that come along with ev production.
      Itís not lower overall impact thatís what they want car manufacturers you to believe.

      Electric is another ďshort time fixĒ mining for rare elements to creat batteries and more pollution is not a step in the right direction. Itís just a way for companies to make you buy more products for more and get less.

      Iím out on this topic, good night everyone hope you all have a great weekend.
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    16. #14
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Itís not lower overall impact thatís what they want car manufacturers you to believe.

      Electric is another ďshort time fixĒ mining for rare elements to creat batteries and more pollution is not a step in the right direction. Itís just a way for companies to make you buy more products for more and get less.

      Iím out on this topic, good night everyone hope you all have a great weekend.
      The studies disagree with you. It really is lower overall impact over the life of the car, including disposing of the batteries. What it's not is what many pro-electric people want you to believe - essentially 0 impact. It takes some time of clean running to 'pay back' the upfront cost of associated with the batteries. The amount of time it takes to get into the black depends largely upon the source of electricity used to charge them. Wind/hydro/solar are fairly quick - a couple of years if I remember correctly. If the electricity comes from coal it takes a long, long time - so long that it may not be cleaner depending upon how long people keep their cars.

      One major difference with electric cars is that so much of the environmental load is shouldered up front that they can only provide real environmental benefit over a long period. For an ICE car the majority of the carbon footprint comes during use so buying new cars frequently isn't *that* much worse than just driving one car for years. It may even be better if the new cars are cleaner. That means if you really are hoping for the environmental benefits then you should plan to keep your electric cars for long enough to get into the black given your source of electricity.
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    17. #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      The studies disagree with you. It really is lower overall impact over the life of the car, including disposing of the batteries. What it's not is what many pro-electric people want you to believe - essentially 0 impact. It takes some time of clean running to 'pay back' the upfront cost of associated with the batteries. The amount of time it takes to get into the black depends largely upon the source of electricity used to charge them. Wind/hydro/solar are fairly quick - a couple of years if I remember correctly. If the electricity comes from coal it takes a long, long time - so long that it may not be cleaner depending upon how long people keep their cars.

      One major difference with electric cars is that so much of the environmental load is shouldered up front that they can only provide real environmental benefit over a long period. For an ICE car the majority of the carbon footprint comes during use so buying new cars frequently isn't *that* much worse than just driving one car for years. It may even be better if the new cars are cleaner. That means if you really are hoping for the environmental benefits then you should plan to keep your electric cars for long enough to get into the black given your source of electricity.
      No they donít, independent studies and first hand experience doesnít.

      You want to follow manufacturing data and there research then believe them.

      Independent studies by field experts show different stores.

      Read this for example.

      https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany...rs-11556057770

      In addition consider how often people trade cars, how cars get in accident, how components fail and need to be replaced, people will not be able to offset there carbon emissions created by selling a perfectly good IC car to buy a electric as a car commercial and car manufacturers told you to ďgo greenĒ

      Again Iím not against electric cars, in many ways they are superior to IC, but Iím not gone say they are better for our global emissions.

      In addition this doesnít even take in to consideration all the mining and its equipment created. All that equipment heavy earth movers, drills, excavators are guess what Diesel and are burning diesel to create your fancy batteries . for the process and all the equipment to move raw materials and the machine to make the batteries and the building they are in then the transport the batteries. And guess what the ship is using to transport them Diesel. Then transport by train and GuessWhat yes again diesel trains. To place it in a truck that uses let me think about it o I know Diesel


      And if you adding all that up add all the work, material, and ongoing cost on the environment, to support the fancy 1.9 million square feet Tesla manufacturing plant , which houses approximately 5.3 million square feet of operational space across several floor. Guess how many people will drive to work and crest additional waist

      In the article That was also re published on Wall Street journal (From the article IN The link)

      Germanyís Dirty Green Cars
      Berlin and Brussels stifle innovation by picking Ďwinners.í

      A study this month by the IFO think tank in Munich found that a popular electric car releases more carbon dioxide into the Atmosphere than comparable IC cars



      Sorry I swear this is the last post
      Last edited by Kamil; 09-18-2020 at 10:50 PM.
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    18. #16
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      I'm not an environmentalist.. at all. But I've been excited for electric for many years. Frankly it's the best hope for a future of hot rodding as you finally shake off the EPA (in the states) from mods. It's also quite a bit of fun to drive.

      Batteries have an impact, but over the life of a vehicle, it's certainly lower. You can only make a portable powerplant so clean. Electric, even from a coal factory, is gonna be able to be generated cleaner per dollar because it's a stationary plant with pretty much zero weight or size restrictions.

      Automobiles continue to be one of the most, if not the most, recycled consumer purchase. Nearly 100% of cars end up at a recycler. So any salvageable materials are able to be used again, including entire parts, or resources truly recycled. Parts reused lowers production of new materials, and lowers production needed for new cars, as older cars are able to be serviced and used for longer and more economic periods. Resources recycled of course reduce extraction from initial sources and sometimes help in reducing of refinement processes.

      Volvo has taken it a step further on the human side with their block chain materials handling to help make sure resources are being more responsibly harvested. Reducing unjust labor and poor land stewardship practices in the initial collection of materials. In effect, creating a specific market for better methods.

      IMO electric offers the most fun future for automobiles, and is cleaner too. Don't let perfection get in the way of better!
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    19. #17
      Member Avboden's Avatar
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      haven't ya'll learned not to argue with Kamil?
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    20. #18
      Quote Originally Posted by Avboden View Post
      haven't ya'll learned not to argue with Kamil?
      No one is arguing, we are having a discussion.
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    21. #19
      Quote Originally Posted by DFrantz View Post
      I'm not an environmentalist.. at all. But I've been excited for electric for many years. Frankly it's the best hope for a future of hot rodding as you finally shake off the EPA (in the states) from mods. It's also quite a bit of fun to drive.

      Batteries have an impact, but over the life of a vehicle, it's certainly lower. You can only make a portable powerplant so clean. Electric, even from a coal factory, is gonna be able to be generated cleaner per dollar because it's a stationary plant with pretty much zero weight or size restrictions.

      Automobiles continue to be one of the most, if not the most, recycled consumer purchase. Nearly 100% of cars end up at a recycler. So any salvageable materials are able to be used again, including entire parts, or resources truly recycled. Parts reused lowers production of new materials, and lowers production needed for new cars, as older cars are able to be serviced and used for longer and more economic periods. Resources recycled of course reduce extraction from initial sources and sometimes help in reducing of refinement processes.

      Volvo has taken it a step further on the human side with their block chain materials handling to help make sure resources are being more responsibly harvested. Reducing unjust labor and poor land stewardship practices in the initial collection of materials. In effect, creating a specific market for better methods.

      IMO electric offers the most fun future for automobiles, and is cleaner too. Don't let perfection get in the way of better!
      Agreed Volvo is doing a great job in this space, much better then most.

      And cars are very well recycled other then the batteries. And if from the start the decision was between IC or electric the electric would be better for the environment especially if we addressed the batteries.

      However, after we invested all this time, money, and research, on one limited earth material fuel source now we go with the other.

      Looks like we havenít learn enough to stop investing in short (earth years speaking) limited resources. Especially when other like hydrogen brings much more to the table. But people canít make their own decisions or follow research and follow whatever shiny new thing is pushed by a famous person or and influencers.
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      IDK if I trust the general population with hydrogen tanks. Volvos 112 MPH limit might not be enough =-D
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    23. #21
      Junior Member DrFunkelstein's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Agreed Volvo is doing a great job in this space, much better then most.

      And cars are very well recycled other then the batteries. And if from the start the decision was between IC or electric the electric would be better for the environment especially if we addressed the batteries.

      However, after we invested all this time, money, and research, on one limited earth material fuel source now we go with the other.

      Looks like we haven’t learn enough to stop investing in short (earth years speaking) limited resources. Especially when other like hydrogen brings much more to the table. But people can’t make their own decisions or follow research and follow whatever shiny new thing is pushed by a famous person or and influencers.
      The difference is at least batteries actually ARE recyclable. We just aren’t good at it yet. Fossil fuels will never be renewable no matter what. It’s important to look at the long term. Right now electric isn’t perfect but we are in the early stages and it will continue to improve. Gas on the other hand is not and will never be something we can regenerate or use renewable resources, like wind solar etc, to create. It seems short-sighted to say we shouldn’t focus on electric, only because there are fixable issues with it at this early stage.

    24. #22
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFunkelstein View Post
      The difference is at least batteries actually ARE recyclable. We just arenít good at it yet. Fossil fuels will never be renewable no matter what. Itís important to look at the long term. Right now electric isnít perfect but we are in the early stages and it will continue to improve. Gas on the other hand is not and will never be something we can regenerate or use renewable resources, like wind solar etc, to create. It seems short-sighted to say we shouldnít focus on electric, only because there are fixable issues with it at this early stage.
      I think you are forgetting the fundamental flaw with electric cars regardless electricity

      BATTERIES ARE MADE WITH NOT RENEWABLE EARTH MATTERIALS THAT ARE RUNNING OUT JUST LIKE FUEL

      regardless of emissions and if we reuse the batteries or not.

      We are killing the planet mining for more materials to make batteries. there is not enough materials to replace all the cars with EV cars, not to mention APPLE and INTEL and other electric companies is also fighting for the same materials.

      this is a short lived solution when for example hydrogen is 100% made made as is able to replace all the cars on the road and you recharge/tank in the same speed like fuel today.

      electric cars are not sustainable
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    25. #23
      Junior Member DrFunkelstein's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      I think you are forgetting the fundamental flaw with electric cars regardless electricity

      BATTERIES ARE MADE WITH NOT RENEWABLE EARTH MATTERIALS THAT ARE RUNNING OUT JUST LIKE FUEL

      regardless of emissions and if we reuse the batteries or not.

      We are killing the planet mining for more materials to make batteries. there is not enough materials to replace all the cars with EV cars, not to mention APPLE and INTEL and other electric companies is also fighting for the same materials.

      this is a short lived solution when for example hydrogen is 100% made made as is able to replace all the cars on the road and you recharge/tank in the same speed like fuel today.

      electric cars are not sustainable
      Hydrogen is great too, I’m not talking about that. But with batteries, at least theoretically all those metals can be recovered and recycled. Are we there yet? No, but the potential is there and I choose to assume that we will solve this problem over time. Unlike with gas, where no amount of research can change that it is consumed as it burns and creates planet-heating byproducts all the while.

      I think it is pessimistic to say EVs are not sustainable and assumes we will make no advancements in the technology over time. But you are free to think that if you wish.

    26. #24
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFunkelstein View Post
      Hydrogen is great too, Iím not talking about that. But with batteries, at least theoretically all those metals can be recovered and recycled. Are we there yet? No, but the potential is there and I choose to assume that we will solve this problem over time. Unlike with gas, where no amount of research can change that it is consumed as it burns and creates planet-heating byproducts all the while.

      I think it is pessimistic to say EVs are not sustainable and assumes we will make no advancements in the technology over time. But you are free to think that if you wish.
      Again you are missing the point that EVís are design to fail just like Fuel as the materials batteries are made are running out. Think about it all the money time and effort spend to make EvĒs happen and then what we run out of material to make batteries and we will start for a new temporary solution?

      EVís are a temporary solution thatís all Iím saying when hydrogen and other cars could be sustainable.

      We are backing the wrong horse with electric
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    27. #25
      Junior Member DrFunkelstein's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Again you are missing the point that EV’s are design to fail just like Fuel as the materials batteries are made are running out. Think about it all the money time and effort spend to make Ev”s happen and then what we run out of material to make batteries and we will start for a new temporary solution?

      EV’s are a temporary solution that’s all I’m saying when hydrogen and other cars could be sustainable.

      We are backing the wrong horse with electric
      If you say so. I strongly disagree.

    28. #26
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFunkelstein View Post
      If you say so. I strongly disagree.
      With what part?

      That we are killing the planet for a temporary "fix" for a problem of running out of fuel for IC cars? Not only we are but we are doing this for a material that will also run out... Some people never learn from the past misstates.


      approximately 500,000 gallons per tonne of lithium of water is used. In Chileís Salar de Atacama, mining activities consumed 65 per cent of the regionís water. That is having a big impact on local farmers and wild life this is just one of many locations destroyed and poised to get your batteries for percusses EV'S



      How about you read this and let reconnect, or any other data on how the mining for lithium is killing people, animals, and the earth... but hay its not in California right? so why one any one care about the damage we are causing.

      People drive EV's and think that they are helping the planet blind to the fact they are killing it!!! and when presented with the data they just ignore it. Ignorance is blessed i guess.

      and as for recycling the used batteries At the University of Birmingham, research funded by the governmentís £246m Faraday Challenge for battery research is trying to find new ways of recycling lithium-ion. Research in Australia found that only two per cent of the countryís 3,300 tonnes of lithium-ion waste was recycled.


      The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction

      As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required could become a major issue in its own right




      https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lith...ronment-impact
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    29. #27
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      I hate to interject here with some reality, but please do some research on "EV battery 2nd life". It's not all doom and gloom.

      The majority of EV battery packs will not be immediately recycled after in-vehicle use. They are too expensive, recycling costs are up to $3.00 per pound, and you can't get much of the high cost material out of them for reuse in a new pack. The packs are also not as disposable, or failure prone as some are thinking. Even after they're removed from the vehicle, there will be many other uses for them, which will extend their life. Most of the cells will still hold 70%+ charge even after 10 years of use in a vehicle, which makes them perfect for stationary energy storage units.

      These batteries will have another life after the EV itself has been recycled.
      Last edited by AJS1KR; 09-19-2020 at 10:51 PM.

    30. #28
      Quote Originally Posted by AJS1KR View Post
      I hate to interject here with some reality, but please do some research on "EV battery 2nd life". It's not all doom and gloom.

      The majority of EV battery packs will not be immediately recycled after in-vehicle use. They are too expensive, recycling costs are up to $3.00 per pound, and you can't get much of the high cost material out of them for reuse in a new pack. The packs are also not as disposable, or failure prone as some are thinking. Even after they're removed from the vehicle, there will be many other uses for them, which will extend their life. Most of the cells will still hold 70%+ charge even after 10 years of use in a vehicle, which makes them perfect for stationary energy storage units.

      These batteries will have another life after the EV itself has been recycled.
      Itís very interesting how you edited and change you response...
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    31. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Itís very interesting how you edited and change you response...
      I had a much longer explanation, but I decided to shorten it for better absorption.

    32. #30
      Quote Originally Posted by AJS1KR View Post
      I had a much longer explanation, but I decided to shorten it for better absorption.
      I read the original post and we both know thatís not why.

      Moving on, as you completely ignore all the data and links provided and the Maine problem with EV cars the manufacturing of the batteries.

      To address your ďbatteries will have another lifeĒ somehow today they donít (again look at the data and links provided).

      No one will pay to use a beet up batteries with salt and other damage then pay to transport it, repair it, just for its 70% of life.

      Itís useless idea just like NASA space shuttle. Sure they spend money by re using the same shuttle but forgot to mention that to service it between flights is way more expensive then multiple missions with traditional rockets.

      But whatever, i guess when my refrigerator brakes I can ďreused itĒ as a bathtub. This will me more realistic Then someone paying for ur used batterie after the 10 years in a car getting destroyed.

      No company will take a chance to pay more for a 70% or less efficient battery that could catch on fire and will cost more in maintenance then a new battery.

      If this was a good idea you would have places everywhere buying your EV car used batteries. Look how many years Tesla and Toyota EVís been on the road no one sis lining up and buying the batteries.

      Reusing a car batteries are as realistic as reusing your cellphone batteries. The reason you buy a new phone is more likely the batteries are starting to fail same with EV cars. You donít see Toyota or Tesla having issues with the motors or owner getting a new car because of nothing more then a battery failure.

      So now you EV car has to offset the carbon buildup for two batterie packs. That still wonít be reused or recycled.

      I sad all that I wanted to said. I attached links with data on other responses. Plenty of data to show how much pollution is created by mining for the materials and that no one is reusing or recycling with his batteries. But hay maybe in the next 200 years will figure it out after the entire California burns down right with the Tesla mega factory.

      Good night all
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    33. #31
      Junior Member DrFunkelstein's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      I read the original post and we both know thatís not why.

      Moving on, as you completely ignore all the data and links provided and the Maine problem with EV cars the manufacturing of the batteries.

      To address your ďbatteries will have another lifeĒ somehow today they donít (again look at the data and links provided).
      Except you have not posted any data, just opinion pieces and pop science articles. The actual data, from actual reports, indicates that the overall carbon footprint for EV is better than fossil fuels, when factoring in all parts of the process.

      I understand what you are saying about the element mining and disposal being a problem. We don't disagree there. Where I disagree is to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say EV is a waste of time, only due to problems with the supply chain right now, and that can (and will) be corrected as we innovate in the space. There is so much potential with EV that we have not realized, that would largely address or at least minimize the concerns you have -- mining would be reduced if we can figure out how to cheaply and efficiently recycle them from old batteries; disposal would also be a smaller problem if we can figure out a good way to recycle them.

      By the way, I think hydrogen is amazing as well. But the tech is simply not at the level even of EV yet and is far more complicated. So then what do you propose in the meantime... keep burning gas until hydrogen is a mature product? Maybe hydrogen will be the ultimate green tech in all cars in some decades which will be great. But it makes no sense to shelf a technology that is better and greener than gas (and yes, it is greener, the data supports it) until that point.

    34. #32
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFunkelstein View Post
      Except you have not posted any data, just opinion pieces and pop science articles. The actual data, from actual reports, indicates that the overall carbon footprint for EV is better than fossil fuels, when factoring in all parts of the process.

      I understand what you are saying about the element mining and disposal being a problem. We don't disagree there. Where I disagree is to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say EV is a waste of time, only due to problems with the supply chain right now, and that can (and will) be corrected as we innovate in the space. There is so much potential with EV that we have not realized, that would largely address or at least minimize the concerns you have -- mining would be reduced if we can figure out how to cheaply and efficiently recycle them from old batteries; disposal would also be a smaller problem if we can figure out a good way to recycle them.

      By the way, I think hydrogen is amazing as well. But the tech is simply not at the level even of EV yet and is far more complicated. So then what do you propose in the meantime... keep burning gas until hydrogen is a mature product? Maybe hydrogen will be the ultimate green tech in all cars in some decades which will be great. But it makes no sense to shelf a technology that is better and greener than gas (and yes, it is greener, the data supports it) until that point.
      Why do you think hydrogen technology is not ďnot on the levelĒ of EV? Toyota had and still offers hydrogen cars before electric. Walmart and other companies use hydrogen to power their fleet of fork lifts and over the road trucks. So how is it not ďprovenĒ or ď ďat the level of EVísĒ last time I checked Tesla still doesnít have a EV truck.

      Back to the topic of electric cars by the time you ďwork outĒ the problem the materials to make it will be obsolete.

      As for your question as what I think we should do. Is simply re address public transport, ride share, Bicycle, and hydrogen for cars based on current technologies on the market.

      I would not back a solution (EVís or other) that has the same limitations as current one (limited supply of earth materials)
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    35. #33
      Junior Member DrFunkelstein's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Why do you think hydrogen technology is not “not on the level” of EV? Toyota had and still offers hydrogen cars before electric. Walmart and other companies use hydrogen to power their fleet of fork lifts and over the road trucks. So how is it not “proven” or “ “at the level of EV’s” last time I checked Tesla still doesn’t have a EV truck.

      Back to the topic of electric cars by the time you “work out” the problem the materials to make it will be obsolete.

      As for your question as what I think we should do. Is simply re address public transport, ride share, Bicycle, and hydrogen for cars based on current technologies on the market.

      I would not back a solution (EV’s or other) that has the same limitations as current one (limited supply of earth materials)
      Back whatever you want. EV is here now, hydrogen is not, simple as that. A few proof of concept cars and some forklifts do not show hydrogen as being at the same level of mainstream acceptance as EV. And while you push for the utopian dream of bicycles and trains, in the real world where people demand to drive cars EV will still be the next big move.

      Feel free to have your opinions, I won’t judge you. As the moderators have asked that we stay on topic, this is the last I’ll say about it, and unlike you I actually mean it.

    36. #34
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFunkelstein View Post
      Back whatever you want. EV is here now, hydrogen is not, simple as that. A few proof of concept cars and some forklifts do not show hydrogen as being at the same level of mainstream acceptance as EV. And while you push for the utopian dream of bicycles and trains, in the real world where people demand to drive cars EV will still be the next big move.

      Feel free to have your opinions, I wonít judge you. As the moderators have asked that we stay on topic, this is the last Iíll say about it, and unlike you I actually mean it.
      @[email protected] Can you please move this part and the posts above to to off-topick , Thank you




      You have no idea what you are talking about " A few proof of concept cars and some forklifts"

      Both Toyota and Honda is selling the Hydrogen cars part of the normal fleet since 2012 in USA and longer with more models as well as different brands all around the world.

      People don't "demand" EV's, they are tricked to believe they are needed and are better for the for us.



      Links that i know you will never click on

      https://www.toyota.com/mirai/fcv.html

      https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-fuel-cell
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    37. #35
      Junior Member React's Avatar
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      That is the best thing you can do. I hope I can keep my car for 10+ years

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