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    1. #36
      Quote Originally Posted by YGreene View Post
      I think this is where I will have to do some actual Volvo-bashing. It's for their own good, I swear!



      The odds that it has anything to actually do with safety are long because if the driver never sees those speeds then the limiter can't save anybody. The speed limiter is most likely there to reduce costs (and therefore improve margins) long-term, allowing Volvo to use less robust and less powerful components knowing what all of their cars will be capable of, and to provide a tangible incentive for performance-minded customers to hop over to Polestar, which made a big deal to announce that they would have no such corporate limiter.



      Volvo has been here before. Twice. They were not profitable enough for their original parent to keep around and they were not profitable enough for Ford to keep around. To get ahead of the usual argument that Ford mismanaged Volvo, they mismanaged their entire company up to that point and have been losing money on Lincoln for decades and they still chose to sell Volvo. Volvo is struggling for the same reason any company struggles: they are not building a product that appeals to enough people for the per-unit margins they can command, an issue compounded by several avoidable miscalculations by upper management.

      Geely won't offload Volvo, though, because Volvo is the jewel in their crown and their key to accessing Western markets. The over-active part of my imagination thinks Geely is all too happy to hold back the purse and let Volvo mis-manage itself because it will ultimately increase Volvo's dependency on them and make them more willing to fully merge. It will also make Polestar, which they more directly control, increasingly relevant to shoppers.



      Eeeeeh, I am going to come out swinging and call that out as empirically false. Customers wanted engines other than the 2.0L I4. They wanted to not have the 112 mph speed limiter. They wanted more physical controls inside the car. They wanted an actual follow-on to the S60/V60 Polestar and not a bunch of bolt-ons and a tuning job on a standard trim. They wanted a return of options for a wagon already certified for US consumption. They wanted ECUs that were not locked down, let alone internet-secured. None of it has materialized and none of it is going to materialize because it's not where Volvo wants to go and it's not where Geely wants Volvo to go. When we come out the other side, we will still have Volvos that are stuck with a weedy engine that is poor on fuel. We will still have 400+ HP "enthusiast" trims stuck with a 112 mph top speed and unresponsive shifting. We will still be stuck with the current capacitive-centric Sensus control schema. We might get the comfort options back, but that's not going to win new customers over to buy this sedan considering few were buying it before they were axed, especially in the US. There is still plenty of stock of new MY19s. For something niche like an Audi TT or Alfa Romeo 4C I could understand that, but not for a pedestrian luxury sedan.

      For a company whose current marketing material says, and I quote, "We believe that technology should set us free – not restrict us", they sure seem to be keen at using technology to pile on the restrictions. Volvo also has such repugnant features in the pipeline as geo-fenced performance limiters! This is the kind of unwanted development you are supporting with your purchase.



      Unlikely. When Audi has a model on the way out that they want to move as much as possible of, they standardize previously optional features and then, in aggregate, drop the price below what those features would have cost prior. See the outgoing A3 still on sale in the US. If Volvo really wanted move units, they would make the nicer things standard at a lower price and then drop the rest so they can stay competitive while also streamlining production, but that is not the track they are taking. All of Volvo's cuts point to saving on material costs. The T5 has less parts, is less expensive to produce, and is used in more vehicles across more markets than the T6. By axing the T6, they can reduce production of the supercharger and related components necessary to to build T6 engines destined for the US plant. Ditto why things like the R badging, paddle-equipped steering wheels, Nappa Leather seats, etc. were all cut, they are consolidating to a smaller common parts pile to reduce operating expenses. That, by the way, is also why they went all-in on touch screens from the start. It's also why Tesla does it. It's not fresh or forward-thinking, it's just cheap.



      I understand it, but I view it as a situation of their own manufacture. The auto industry is hardly collapsing, especially not the well-insulated luxury side that they inhabit, and options are hardly being eliminated wholesale and certainly not even close to the same degree that Volvo has been castrating itself. All of the German marques are full-steam ahead releasing new product and adding more options; if yo've been frequenting car review channels like Autogefühl, it's been a veritable parade of new models from the Fatherland. The Hyundai group and Japanese brands like Honda and Toyota have also been absolutely killing it. No, it's the niche brands who have failed to appeal to a broad audience and which rely on large volumes of low-margin sales to stay solvent that are struggling, brands like Volvo, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Alfa Romeo, and Chrysler.

      If I were in your position, I would have cancelled my order because they are delivering an inferior product to what I thought I was signing up for given the last two model years. So respect for being a fan, but the brand will only continue to decay if people keep teaching them the wrong lesson by buying despite the product getting worse. You are not helping them survive, you are only helping them die slower.

      Even then, I actually have no idea why you ordered an MY21 at all when the market is still flooded with new MY19s and MY20s. One of them is bound to be what you're looking for. If it's something silly like not having the exterior styling kit, the savings all these "old" cars have from incentives would allow you to get that very same kit from Viva Performance and you'd end up with a better vehicle overall.
      Some very interesting points.

      It will be interesting to see how the hole “ Electrification“ as the main focus and brand changes play out for Volvo.
      2020 V60 CC 1 of 4 Crystal white with Amber interior and the only 1 with parking assist.

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    3. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by MJEWETT View Post
      As unfortunate as it is, this will most likely be my last Volvo (2020 T6 R-Design). And sadly, its for such silly, stupid reasons that as many of us have already said in this and the discontinuation of the ventilated seats on the S/V60 inscription model thread I started, actually mean a lot to a potential buyer in this class of car.

      I love my car, and I love the features I had been lucky enough to order before they were removed. There are of course many things that could be improved upon to make the car better but it is an overall great package. Many of its cons are equaled by some pretty nice pros. But seeing what they have done across the board to their model lineup, especially the S60, really irks me.

      What makes me most angry is the lack and continual removal of options and features for the US market, yet the S60 is produced in our country. It's mind-boggling. I understand not having the mass-produced models which are allocated for dealer lots contain many of these features, but being that all the parts are available in the factory, along with the paint colors we were ridden of, it is pretty outrageous that they don't allow for more tailored customer-ordered models like they used to.

      With the previous-gen models, you always had an overseas order booklet with all of the options and features you were able to obtain by doing a direct order or doing overseas delivery. If you are a volvo diehard, I am sure you are aware. S80's used to be able to be ordered with special trims and shades of leather, etc. S60's could come in some pretty wild interior material combinations, etc. It seems with SPA, and CMA, volvo basically nixed all uniqueness and customization with the special-orders. Now more so than ever.

      If ten years ago, I could order an S80 with blood-red leather seats and brushed aluminum trim with a sport suspension and forged rims if I were willing to take a trip to sweden to pick it up, or give up the free trip and wait until it got here, why can I not now do something similar when the factory is only a mere few states away from us all. It's crazy.

      Besides all of what I said above, the T6 was the sweet spot in the lineup. Sure, remove the T6, but at least replace it with the B6 if you are going to do this. Many of us would rather have a mild hybrid that doesn't need to be plugged in, as opposed to a car that needs to be charged each night. That could be just me... but I just don't like the idea of having to put gas in the car and still charge my car at night.

      Also, don't devalue what an R-Design means, considering an R-Design is really just a devalued version of the original R's that Volvo completely abandoned to begin with. As we all know, an R-Design is really basically just a styling pack, some tinkering here and there but basically if you didn't opt for the sport suspension and the polestar tune, it was a glorified-looking version of all the over models on the lot. They finally seemed to be heading in the right direction with the R-Designs on the SPA platform, and then they shot themselves in the foot with this whole "expression" trim level. First you took the hallmark "R" trim (still fangirled by all Volvo fans for being a truly competitive sports trim) and made it almost all but an appearance pack, and now you are going to make an even less competitive appearance pack off of the appearance pack? I literally don't get it.

      So we started with R, then had R-Design, and now we have an R-Design-lite? You could almost equate it to the people who put AMG or M badges on their c300's and 328i's. If you opted for an R-Design, you paid a premium for it, and you paid a premium to have your S60 look and feel more "special" than most of the typical momentum and lightly spec'd Inscriptions you see driving around. Now, why even bother. Are we really going to have to now say "hey, nice volvo, is yours a real R-Design or an Expression?"

      And don't even get me started on the whole top speed-limiter bull****. If someone crashed at 112mph, what is the likelihood of them surviving it vs. crashing at 130 or 155? Will the car be even more destroyed? Of course, but I really wouldn't expect someone to survive a crash at 112 either, even in a Volvo. I wouldn't have an issue with it whatsoever if the limiter wasn't implemented on a Polestar Engineered or R-Design models and only on Inscription or Momentum models, but to do it model-wide in your lineup when you are charging $70K for a high-performance sports sedan/wagon/suv? You just lost the very few sales you were making to begin with if you ask me.

      And then just the outrageous little penny-pinching decisions they made for 2021. No more R-Design logo for the R-Design sports steering wheel? No more paddle shifters on your performance trims? No more headlight washers? No more ventilated seats on your "luxury" trim for S/V60's?

      Plain old stupid decisions. Every new model that comes out, it seems they are going in the right direction, and then every year further in the lineup, ignorant decisions as these occur and upset their buying demographic.
      What is the difference between an R Design and an Expression?
      Hers: 2019 S60 T5 R-Design FWD | Pebble Gray / Charcoal, Napa Leather | 18” R-Design Wheels | Heated Seats and Steering Wheel | Rubber Floor Mats

      His: 2018 V90 T5 R-Design FWD | Crystal White / Charcoal, Full Napa Leather | 20" R-Design Diamond Cut Wheels | Convenience Package | Laminated Glass | Heated Seats/Steering Wheel | Powered Load Cover | Rubber Floor Mats | Integrated Child Safety Seats


      Former Volvos: 2018 V60 Dynamic, 2008 S80 3.2 (first one with adaptive cruise in US), 2006 XC90 V8, 2004 V70ASR, 2003 V70ASR (OSD and replaced by 04 due to tranny problem with valve body), 03 S80 T6 (OSD), 99 V70 and 98 V70 (twins wagons to match our new born twins), 96 850GTA wagon, 93 940 Wagon (Cloth, no sunoof), 92 240 and 90 240 DL.

    4. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by rdr854 View Post
      What is the difference between an R Design and an Expression?
      If you go to Volvo site and build an S60 recharge you can spec it. Easiest description it's R-design on the outside, momentum on the inside: comfort seats, regular wheel and wood trim. And a bit of a stripper for equipment.

      Gotta love marketing people "R-Design Expression" sheesh!!

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    6. #39
      Quote Originally Posted by YGreene View Post
      I think this is where I will have to do some actual Volvo-bashing. It's for their own good, I swear!



      The odds that it has anything to actually do with safety are long because if the driver never sees those speeds then the limiter can't save anybody. The speed limiter is most likely there to reduce costs (and therefore improve margins) long-term, allowing Volvo to use less robust and less powerful components knowing what all of their cars will be capable of, and to provide a tangible incentive for performance-minded customers to hop over to Polestar, which made a big deal to announce that they would have no such corporate limiter.



      Volvo has been here before. Twice. They were not profitable enough for their original parent to keep around and they were not profitable enough for Ford to keep around. To get ahead of the usual argument that Ford mismanaged Volvo, they mismanaged their entire company up to that point and have been losing money on Lincoln for decades and they still chose to sell Volvo. Volvo is struggling for the same reason any company struggles: they are not building a product that appeals to enough people for the per-unit margins they can command, an issue compounded by several avoidable miscalculations by upper management.

      Geely won't offload Volvo, though, because Volvo is the jewel in their crown and their key to accessing Western markets. The over-active part of my imagination thinks Geely is all too happy to hold back the purse and let Volvo mis-manage itself because it will ultimately increase Volvo's dependency on them and make them more willing to fully merge. It will also make Polestar, which they more directly control, increasingly relevant to shoppers.



      Eeeeeh, I am going to come out swinging and call that out as empirically false. Customers wanted engines other than the 2.0L I4. They wanted to not have the 112 mph speed limiter. They wanted more physical controls inside the car. They wanted an actual follow-on to the S60/V60 Polestar and not a bunch of bolt-ons and a tuning job on a standard trim. They wanted a return of options for a wagon already certified for US consumption. They wanted ECUs that were not locked down, let alone internet-secured. None of it has materialized and none of it is going to materialize because it's not where Volvo wants to go and it's not where Geely wants Volvo to go. When we come out the other side, we will still have Volvos that are stuck with a weedy engine that is poor on fuel. We will still have 400+ HP "enthusiast" trims stuck with a 112 mph top speed and unresponsive shifting. We will still be stuck with the current capacitive-centric Sensus control schema. We might get the comfort options back, but that's not going to win new customers over to buy this sedan considering few were buying it before they were axed, especially in the US. There is still plenty of stock of new MY19s. For something niche like an Audi TT or Alfa Romeo 4C I could understand that, but not for a pedestrian luxury sedan.

      For a company whose current marketing material says, and I quote, "We believe that technology should set us free – not restrict us", they sure seem to be keen at using technology to pile on the restrictions. Volvo also has such repugnant features in the pipeline as geo-fenced performance limiters! This is the kind of unwanted development you are supporting with your purchase.



      Unlikely. When Audi has a model on the way out that they want to move as much as possible of, they standardize previously optional features and then, in aggregate, drop the price below what those features would have cost prior. See the outgoing A3 still on sale in the US. If Volvo really wanted move units, they would make the nicer things standard at a lower price and then drop the rest so they can stay competitive while also streamlining production, but that is not the track they are taking. All of Volvo's cuts point to saving on material costs. The T5 has less parts, is less expensive to produce, and is used in more vehicles across more markets than the T6. By axing the T6, they can reduce production of the supercharger and related components necessary to to build T6 engines destined for the US plant. Ditto why things like the R badging, paddle-equipped steering wheels, Nappa Leather seats, etc. were all cut, they are consolidating to a smaller common parts pile to reduce operating expenses. That, by the way, is also why they went all-in on touch screens from the start. It's also why Tesla does it. It's not fresh or forward-thinking, it's just cheap.



      I understand it, but I view it as a situation of their own manufacture. The auto industry is hardly collapsing, especially not the well-insulated luxury side that they inhabit, and options are hardly being eliminated wholesale and certainly not even close to the same degree that Volvo has been castrating itself. All of the German marques are full-steam ahead releasing new product and adding more options; if yo've been frequenting car review channels like Autogefühl, it's been a veritable parade of new models from the Fatherland. The Hyundai group and Japanese brands like Honda and Toyota have also been absolutely killing it. No, it's the niche brands who have failed to appeal to a broad audience and which rely on large volumes of low-margin sales to stay solvent that are struggling, brands like Volvo, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Alfa Romeo, and Chrysler.

      If I were in your position, I would have cancelled my order because they are delivering an inferior product to what I thought I was signing up for given the last two model years. So respect for being a fan, but the brand will only continue to decay if people keep teaching them the wrong lesson by buying despite the product getting worse. You are not helping them survive, you are only helping them die slower.

      Even then, I actually have no idea why you ordered an MY21 at all when the market is still flooded with new MY19s and MY20s. One of them is bound to be what you're looking for. If it's something silly like not having the exterior styling kit, the savings all these "old" cars have from incentives would allow you to get that very same kit from Viva Performance and you'd end up with a better vehicle overall.
      While you make some valid points, I don't think a lot of your conclusions are accurate. And the reason I say that is because I worked for Volvo during the Ford ownership crisis and have some insight the average person hasn't been able to obtain.

      I could care less about the speed limiter. It's a statement of safety, nothing more or less. Maybe it has zero impact, but it sounds good and is marketing. Clearly it's gotten them publicity, and that's the entire point.

      Volvo has not been here before. This set of circumstances is VERY different. I am specifically comment on the S60 plant and it's financial crisis, not the entire company. They just invested 1.1 billion dollars in a plant that makes one product that has almost no demand. This is nothing like the Ford days (and your comments about how Ford managed them are highly inaccurate...and I know because I worked there). Geeley is happy to see them fail? Yes, your imagination is over-active and I don't think you fully understand the synergy between Volvo and Geely.

      Your assessment of Volvo's core consumer base wants/needs is your option, but it's not in sync with boatloads of research Volvo has done to understand it's buyers. Remember the first S60R? It lasted for 4 years....barely. Why? After every Volvo enthusiast bought one, no one else did. Performance is not the Volvo brand, and if that's ultra important to you Volvo isn't the brand for you. The S60 Polestar showed the exact same....no buyers beyond a small pool of people. The R-Design styling is exactly what the majority of buyers want. Notice Audi, BMW and MB all do the same thing. Also, notice those companies are also going to 4-cylinders in a huge percentage of their cars and following Volvo's lead. Like it or not, Volvo was ahead of the curve. Yes, Volvo has lost sales because they don't have a 6 or 8 cylinder motor. But for every customer lost they gain 10 more. It was a calculated move, one that lots of us on this forum don't really like as enthusiasts, but it's a shift in the brand. Volvo's 4-cylinder engine has been named one of the top ten best motors in the world. Name another 300+ hp AWD car that routinely gets 35 mph on the interstate (meaning, they are extremely efficient motors). Sensus continues to be reviewed as one of the best (or the best) infotainment systems to use as a whole.

      You are off the mark on Volvo reducing options and other brands continuing (Audi especially, and since I own an Audi now I'm very familiar). Audi often offers ventilated seats in 1 color and 1 design. The take rate is minuscule on ventilated seats in America. Go ask MB or BMW how many cars are ordered with ventilated seats.....tiny, especially on $50,000 cars. So the fact that Volvo stopped offering it is not crazy, it's actually quite logical. The A3 example you give is because of poor planning on Audi's part, and they are literally giving away A3s because it's so outdated and the new model is still forever away from launching in America. Look at the A4 in 2017 compared to 2021...the option list is 2/3rds the size as Audi reduces build combinations and streamlines production to control costs, exactly what Volvo is doing. It's also completely inaccurate to say touch screens exist to save cost...that is internet folklore. The cost of developing and producing touchscreens is higher than physical buttons (which has been well documented to refute this silly assertion). And yes, the 2021 option list most certainly contains 100% of the features 90% of buyers want. Model purchase analysis of cars in this segment prove that. Volvo has had more standard features than any luxury car brand for quite some time. For example, MB and BMW sold more 3 series or C class cars with halogen headlamps versus LED by an enormous margin why Volvo made LED lights standard. There are endless other examples (auto brake safety equipment being another key one).

      Mercedes Benz is chopping 7 models from it's lineup. BMW is cancelling 5 models for sure, and it looks like more will follow. You say German brands are full steam ahead on products? I'd say it's just the opposite! Volvo literally has the newest model lineup of a any brand in existence.

      No, Im not cancelling my order because of an "interior product". You don't move from a $200,000 V10 supercar to an inferior product. So I should cancel my order to teach Volvo a lesson? Maybe I should instead support the brand so they still exist the next time I want a different car. I am not helping they die slower. Volvo is growing it's brand and an exponential rate while other brands are shrinking. It seems their decisions are resonating with it's core buyers while attracting new ones by the droves. More people buy an XC90 as their first Volvo compared to repeat Volvo buyers. Name another car brand that can make that claim about one of their models.

      And no.....there is simply not another 19 or 20 model year car that meats my requirements: Bursting Blue, State interior, B & W Audio. I placed an order because I do not compromise on the car I want, and I'll gladly pay extra to have what I want. I've worked in the industry long enough to see buyers remorse, and I will never own a car that makes me wish I had ordered that one options i wanted badly but settled...... It appears likely I will be be the driver of the ONLY Bursting blue/Slate/B&W T6 powered car in all of America. Could I have saved money and got a car that didn't have 1 of the 3 things I wanted? Yup. Do I care.....nope. I'll miss my R8 V10...a lot...but the fact a Volvo replaces it should speak volumes of just how "right" Volvo is getting the important stuff.

      This is super interesting conversation! I want to make sure it's clear I am not belittling your opinion or trying to be impolite and discredit all your comments. You certainly make some valid points, and you represent a segment of buyer's sentiments. However, I wanted to offer a counter point of view as a car enthusiast, long time Volvo owner, and former Volvo employee. This is meant to be a friendly discussion, so please don't misinterpret the "tone" of my comments.
      Last edited by VolvoFaRmeR; 09-22-2020 at 02:10 AM.

    7. #40
      Junior Member genesmasher's Avatar
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      A lot of great points, bravo YGreene. Many of them have been brought up by others over the years, the problem is nobody at Volvo has been listening. Instead they keep making ever-stupider decisions, which only make enthusiasts scratch their heads and pull their hairs out. Also, I genuinely think you are onto something suggesting that Geely is sabotaging the brand on purpose.

      Specifically in S60's case, I could never understand why limiting options available in the US leads to cost-saving. You are already building these cars with these options, in the same facility, for the rest of the world. Also, it doesn't cost more to paint cars in more appealing colors.
      2020 S60 T6 R-design Polestar / Bursting Blue / Black
      2019 S60 T6 R-design Polestar / Fusion Red / Black
      2018 XC60 T8 AWD Inscription Vision Lux Air / Fusion Red / Black
      past:
      2018 S60 T5 Dynamic Sport Vision Nav / Onyx Black / Black
      2015.5 XC60 T6 AWD Platinum Sport BLIS / Power Blue / Blond|Black
      2014 S60 T5 Prem Plus Sport BLIS Xenons / Ember Black / Beechwood

    8. #41
      Quote Originally Posted by genesmasher View Post
      A lot of great points, bravo YGreene. Many of them have been brought up by others over the years, the problem is nobody at Volvo has been listening. Instead they keep making ever-stupider decisions, which only make enthusiasts scratch their heads and pull their hairs out. Also, I genuinely think you are onto something suggesting that Geely is sabotaging the brand on purpose.

      Specifically in S60's case, I could never understand why limiting options available in the US leads to cost-saving. You are already building these cars with these options, in the same facility, for the rest of the world. Also, it doesn't cost more to paint cars in more appealing colors.
      this why and i said this before i don't think this is Volvo driven but by customer order and this is really only driven by dealership order.

      so again, dealerships don't buy/order cars with vented seats as they think "no one will pay for this" and "i would need to drop the price to be competitive". Volvo then sees that all 90% in USA are order with out the vented seats the option is just dropped.

      This is basic for any person with any knowledge of product marketing.

      Also, Specials factory orders are represented differently on sales matrix and are not taken to consideration most of the time when reviewing options lists. the only exemption it is if the factory order is much grater then dealership order and then people are trying to look for reasons why are people going with factory order.

      and just to add to this what sucks the most is the dealership makes $ Volvo start to get declining sales, then goes under, then the dealerships goes with a new brand and they still make $

      I hate the USA dealership network and the power they have over the manufacturer

      image if you make any product but then could not sell it or service it but depended on other to do just that...
      Last edited by Kamil; 09-22-2020 at 11:59 AM.
      2020 V60 CC 1 of 4 Crystal white with Amber interior and the only 1 with parking assist.

    9. #42
      Junior Member genesmasher's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      this why and i said this before i don't think this is Volvo driven but by customer order and this is really only driven by dealership order.

      so again, dealerships don't buy/order cars with vented seats as they think "no one will pay for this" and "i would need to drop the price to be competitive". Volvo then sees that all 90% in USA are order with out the vented seats the option is just dropped.

      This is basic for any person with any knowledge of product marketing.

      Also, Specials factory orders are represented differently on sales matrix and are not taken to consideration most of the time when reviewing options lists. the only exemption it is if the factory order is much grater then dealership order and then people are trying to look for reasons why are people going with factory order.
      According to several SoCal Volvo dealers I spoke with earlier this year, they have very little influence over the options the cars come with. Apparently, allocations are 95% determined by the factory, including colors, engine choices, etc. That's why they have been stuck with nothing but T5 Momentums since last year. Doesn't make sense to me either, but that's the recurring message I've heard.
      2020 S60 T6 R-design Polestar / Bursting Blue / Black
      2019 S60 T6 R-design Polestar / Fusion Red / Black
      2018 XC60 T8 AWD Inscription Vision Lux Air / Fusion Red / Black
      past:
      2018 S60 T5 Dynamic Sport Vision Nav / Onyx Black / Black
      2015.5 XC60 T6 AWD Platinum Sport BLIS / Power Blue / Blond|Black
      2014 S60 T5 Prem Plus Sport BLIS Xenons / Ember Black / Beechwood

    10. #43

      No more T6 just heard...

      Quote Originally Posted by genesmasher View Post
      According to several SoCal Volvo dealers I spoke with earlier this year, they have very little influence over the options the cars come with. Apparently, allocations are 95% determined by the factory, including colors, engine choices, etc. That's why they have been stuck with nothing but T5 Momentums since last year. Doesn't make sense to me either, but that's the recurring message I've heard.
      did not talk to SoCal dealers but i don't think its different then any other dealership as the sales manager selects the cars and equipment to orde.

      Think about it dealership is a private company you cant force them to but cars with options or colors they will purchase. same thing is if you know you wont sell convertible (i know Volvo don't have one any more) in Alaska dealership they cant force you to order one.

      I never heard that the manufactures forced what cars to order equipment and color. they are cases when the manufacturing rap wants you to have one of each kind like Polestar or something but never that they will select what they will buy.


      Update:

      Just spoke with my friend at Volvo corporate NA.

      Volvo corporate based on the previous sales selects modes that the dealership gets.

      The dealership has full control on options including color on those cars.

      And they are free to order additional inventory they want “special order cars” like PE Eng.
      Last edited by Kamil; 09-22-2020 at 01:33 PM.
      2020 V60 CC 1 of 4 Crystal white with Amber interior and the only 1 with parking assist.

    11. #44
      Senior Member Wayne T5's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by VolvoFaRmeR View Post
      While you make some valid points, I don't think a lot of your conclusions are accurate. And the reason I say that is because I worked for Volvo during the Ford ownership crisis and have some insight the average person hasn't been able to obtain.

      I could care less about the speed limiter. It's a statement of safety, nothing more or less. Maybe it has zero impact, but it sounds good and is marketing. Clearly it's gotten them publicity, and that's the entire point.

      Volvo has not been here before. This set of circumstances is VERY different. I am specifically comment on the S60 plant and it's financial crisis, not the entire company. They just invested 1.1 billion dollars in a plant that makes one product that has almost no demand. This is nothing like the Ford days (and your comments about how Ford managed them are highly inaccurate...and I know because I worked there). Geeley is happy to see them fail? Yes, your imagination is over-active and I don't think you fully understand the synergy between Volvo and Geely.

      Your assessment of Volvo's core consumer base wants/needs is your option, but it's not in sync with boatloads of research Volvo has done to understand it's buyers. Remember the first S60R? It lasted for 4 years....barely. Why? After every Volvo enthusiast bought one, no one else did. Performance is not the Volvo brand, and if that's ultra important to you Volvo isn't the brand for you. The S60 Polestar showed the exact same....no buyers beyond a small pool of people. The R-Design styling is exactly what the majority of buyers want. Notice Audi, BMW and MB all do the same thing. Also, notice those companies are also going to 4-cylinders in a huge percentage of their cars and following Volvo's lead. Like it or not, Volvo was ahead of the curve. Yes, Volvo has lost sales because they don't have a 6 or 8 cylinder motor. But for every customer lost they gain 10 more. It was a calculated move, one that lots of us on this forum don't really like as enthusiasts, but it's a shift in the brand. Volvo's 4-cylinder engine has been named one of the top ten best motors in the world. Name another 300+ hp AWD car that routinely gets 35 mph on the interstate (meaning, they are extremely efficient motors). Sensus continues to be reviewed as one of the best (or the best) infotainment systems to use as a whole.

      You are off the mark on Volvo reducing options and other brands continuing (Audi especially, and since I own an Audi now I'm very familiar). Audi often offers ventilated seats in 1 color and 1 design. The take rate is minuscule on ventilated seats in America. Go ask MB or BMW how many cars are ordered with ventilated seats.....tiny, especially on $50,000 cars. So the fact that Volvo stopped offering it is not crazy, it's actually quite logical. The A3 example you give is because of poor planning on Audi's part, and they are literally giving away A3s because it's so outdated and the new model is still forever away from launching in America. Look at the A4 in 2017 compared to 2021...the option list is 2/3rds the size as Audi reduces build combinations and streamlines production to control costs, exactly what Volvo is doing. It's also completely inaccurate to say touch screens exist to save cost...that is internet folklore. The cost of developing and producing touchscreens is higher than physical buttons (which has been well documented to refute this silly assertion). And yes, the 2021 option list most certainly contains 100% of the features 90% of buyers want. Model purchase analysis of cars in this segment prove that. Volvo has had more standard features than any luxury car brand for quite some time. For example, MB and BMW sold more 3 series or C class cars with halogen headlamps versus LED by an enormous margin why Volvo made LED lights standard. There are endless other examples (auto brake safety equipment being another key one).

      Mercedes Benz is chopping 7 models from it's lineup. BMW is cancelling 5 models for sure, and it looks like more will follow. You say German brands are full steam ahead on products? I'd say it's just the opposite! Volvo literally has the newest model lineup of a any brand in existence.

      No, Im not cancelling my order because of an "interior product". You don't move from a $200,000 V10 supercar to an inferior product. So I should cancel my order to teach Volvo a lesson? Maybe I should instead support the brand so they still exist the next time I want a different car. I am not helping they die slower. Volvo is growing it's brand and an exponential rate while other brands are shrinking. It seems their decisions are resonating with it's core buyers while attracting new ones by the droves. More people buy an XC90 as their first Volvo compared to repeat Volvo buyers. Name another car brand that can make that claim about one of their models.

      And no.....there is simply not another 19 or 20 model year car that meats my requirements: Bursting Blue, State interior, B & W Audio. I placed an order because I do not compromise on the car I want, and I'll gladly pay extra to have what I want. I've worked in the industry long enough to see buyers remorse, and I will never own a car that makes me wish I had ordered that one options i wanted badly but settled...... It appears likely I will be be the driver of the ONLY Bursting blue/Slate/B&W T6 powered car in all of America. Could I have saved money and got a car that didn't have 1 of the 3 things I wanted? Yup. Do I care.....nope. I'll miss my R8 V10...a lot...but the fact a Volvo replaces it should speak volumes of just how "right" Volvo is getting the important stuff.

      This is super interesting conversation! I want to make sure it's clear I am not belittling your opinion or trying to be impolite and discredit all your comments. You certainly make some valid points, and you represent a segment of buyer's sentiments. However, I wanted to offer a counter point of view as a car enthusiast, long time Volvo owner, and former Volvo employee. This is meant to be a friendly discussion, so please don't misinterpret the "tone" of my comments.
      Another good take.

      Volvo is pretty much an SUV company now - that's what people are buying these days and that's where they earn the lion's share of their profits.

      I also doubt that Geely is trying to sabotage the brand, lol.

      Volvo's core competencies are safety, design, comfort, features, etc. - building performance cars is not one of them.
      Past: '94 854, '99 S70 T5 SE, '99 S70 GLT, '04 S60R M, '12 S60 T5, '13 S60 T5, '15 S60 RD, '05 V70R GT
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    12. #45
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      Different regions are different of course. But I can go a month or two between selling an S60, or even having someone come in and asking for a test drive. I make a living selling XC40s, 60s, and 90s. I found the lack of ventilated seats unfortunate, but also only sold one with them last year. The US just doesn't want sedans, and as such if you're in the market for one, buying a one year old off rental, or ex corporate car is such a good value, it's even harder to justify a brand new one.

      The S60 keeps losing sales and it's not because of a lack of ventilated seats. In August Volvo reported 1,094 S60 sales and 392 S90 sales in the US. We sold 1933 XC40s (a model I'm now sold out of that has never offered vented seats), 2981 XC60s and 2998 XC90s. And I'd have to ask... of those sedan sales, how many are rentals....

      As for dealership involvement... we typically get full control, but there are several times Volvo pushes out a load of cars already locked in. That's why nearly every dealer got a 2019 Red R design as their first S60.... Volvo allocation is not fully open either... they lock in the trim level and motor and we can change the specs from there up to a certain date... sometimes they slip orders in without telling anyone and if a dealer is quick they catch it and make changes... if the sales manager doesn't pay much attention, they just show up.
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    13. #46
      Quote Originally Posted by DFrantz View Post
      Different regions are different of course. But I can go a month or two between selling an S60, or even having someone come in and asking for a test drive. I make a living selling XC40s, 60s, and 90s. I found the lack of ventilated seats unfortunate, but also only sold one with them last year. The US just doesn't want sedans, and as such if you're in the market for one, buying a one year old off rental, or ex corporate car is such a good value, it's even harder to justify a brand new one.

      The S60 keeps losing sales and it's not because of a lack of ventilated seats. In August Volvo reported 1,094 S60 sales and 392 S90 sales in the US. We sold 1933 XC40s (a model I'm now sold out of that has never offered vented seats), 2981 XC60s and 2998 XC90s. And I'd have to ask... of those sedan sales, how many are rentals....

      As for dealership involvement... we typically get full control, but there are several times Volvo pushes out a load of cars already locked in. That's why nearly every dealer got a 2019 Red R design as their first S60.... Volvo allocation is not fully open either... they lock in the trim level and motor and we can change the specs from there up to a certain date... sometimes they slip orders in without telling anyone and if a dealer is quick they catch it and make changes... if the sales manager doesn't pay much attention, they just show up.
      Funny sidenote the you only reason why my wife is not driving x40 is the no ventilated seats. But I fully agree with your assessment that is a 1% of option sold.

      And everybody in this forum keeps forgetting that the 20 people that are posting represent 1% of the buyers of Volvo. In our opinion and the money we are willing to put in these cars and the options we want are also 1% of options sold.

      What’s even wars seen this happen in all different brands like Jeep and Chevy when someone finally makes the one car the one option that everybody seems to want one they say if this car only had manual or if this car only came with a diesel or any other claim like that when the car is finally being made done they still don’t buy it because at that point his oh if only it came with a manual and a diesel in red with 30 inch tires and a hybrid option with 10 year warranty
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    14. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by DFrantz View Post
      Different regions are different of course. But I can go a month or two between selling an S60, or even having someone come in and asking for a test drive. I make a living selling XC40s, 60s, and 90s. I found the lack of ventilated seats unfortunate, but also only sold one with them last year. The US just doesn't want sedans, and as such if you're in the market for one, buying a one year old off rental, or ex corporate car is such a good value, it's even harder to justify a brand new one.
      Good reminder of the market conditions. I guess that's how you get great deals on new sedans. It's probably hard for automakers to give up on them, if you want to position in the premium brands or whatever we call the space, you want to cover all the options if you can. And maybe it's not so bad for Volvo, they got the V60CC which I think is the second best selling of the S/V60 line? And it's a lot of shared chassis and parts so maybe it works out ok for them. I'm thankful they make a short wheelbase lowered XC90 sedan/wagon for some of us;-)

      I'm curious, would you personally be better off if the sedans went away, like if you had more time to move XCs, or you could get those people into the volume models? By your numbers sedans are 19% of sales, it's not nothing, almost 1 out of 5 vehicles sold...

      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      What’s even wars seen this happen in all different brands like Jeep and Chevy when someone finally makes the one car the one option that everybody seems to want one they say if this car only had manual or if this car only came with a diesel or any other claim like that when the car is finally being made done they still don’t buy it because at that point his oh if only it came with a manual and a diesel in red with 30 inch tires and a hybrid option with 10 year warranty
      Yeah this story is played out. It's true of course but played out ha. If a mfr can figure out how to overcome the dealer system and customer buying habits in the US to deliver small run configurations efficiently maybe there is hope. I think it can be done in some cases, I recall Bob Lutz saying something like they only had to sell 14 CTS wagons to break even on that model, and the unicorn CTS-V wagon with a stick was born ;-)

      Just as a counterpoint though...Honda put a stick in the Accord Sport, cuz the enthusiasts wanted it. It's a raging dumpster fire as an enthusiast car, but yeah it does have a stick. So who's fault is it, Honda for putting in no effort other than certifying the powertrain, or the enthusiasts for not buying it.

      All Volvo had to do was slap a free euro suspension in the S60, charge me $200 for the privilege and I became a buyer where I would not have been. Was that worth it for them? I'd think so but I don't know.

    15. #48
      Quote Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
      Good reminder of the market conditions. I guess that's how you get great deals on new sedans. It's probably hard for automakers to give up on them, if you want to position in the premium brands or whatever we call the space, you want to cover all the options if you can. And maybe it's not so bad for Volvo, they got the V60CC which I think is the second best selling of the S/V60 line? And it's a lot of shared chassis and parts so maybe it works out ok for them. I'm thankful they make a short wheelbase lowered XC90 sedan/wagon for some of us;-)

      I'm curious, would you personally be better off if the sedans went away, like if you had more time to move XCs, or you could get those people into the volume models? By your numbers sedans are 19% of sales, it's not nothing, almost 1 out of 5 vehicles sold...



      Yeah this story is played out. It's true of course but played out ha. If a mfr can figure out how to overcome the dealer system and customer buying habits in the US to deliver small run configurations efficiently maybe there is hope. I think it can be done in some cases, I recall Bob Lutz saying something like they only had to sell 14 CTS wagons to break even on that model, and the unicorn CTS-V wagon with a stick was born ;-)

      Just as a counterpoint though...Honda put a stick in the Accord Sport, cuz the enthusiasts wanted it. It's a raging dumpster fire as an enthusiast car, but yeah it does have a stick. So who's fault is it, Honda for putting in no effort other than certifying the powertrain, or the enthusiasts for not buying it.

      All Volvo had to do was slap a free euro suspension in the S60, charge me $200 for the privilege and I became a buyer where I would not have been. Was that worth it for them? I'd think so but I don't know.
      Confused at what point you are trying to make.

      There is always a reason when manufacturers make a “smaller run” but it’s not to bring a product to enthusiast.

      Traditionally is to test components in one car before making a huge run in another or use up some left over parts and bring excitement to a model.

      Sometimes it’s to show off or show up a different manufacturer like the Ford vs Ferrari deal

      However to the CTS V wagon comment no way a 14 cars would pay for R&D and tooling cost. It wouldn’t even pay for the marketing budget that would be required just for a product brochure
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    16. #49
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      Sooo anyways I was browsing Autotrader real quick, looking at some 2021s...There are a number of T6s still out there. But I noticed something, I think there is more to this story here, it seems like Volvo is de-emphasizing the "R-design" trim, maybe fixing to kill it off? I noticed they have removed all references to the trim on the 2021 R-D: No steering wheel R badge and no branding of the headrest as we know, but also no rear R badge(just the AWD badge), and the "R-Design" scuff plates changed the "Volvo" scuff plates. Those small things don't seem like cost cutting but more removing that branding was intentional.

      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Confused at what point you are trying to make...However to the CTS V wagon comment no way a 14 cars would pay for R&D and tooling cost. It wouldn’t even pay for the marketing budget that would be required just for a product brochure
      Yeah I don't know what you are saying either ha. I meant "small run" as in niche options, not R&D, sorry I was probably not clear. Like whatever it is those 1% of people want, the ventilated seats, if they have them over at the factory, and there are a few people who want them, how can they get them to the people that want them efficiently. I guess the answer is Volvo can't currently do that. My memory was fuzzy on the CTS-V and google wasn't too much help but this refreshed me (https://jalopnik.com/2013-cadillac-c...view-523089179) and it's kind of pertinent. It was 5 cars, about the CTS-V wagon specifically, they had all the parts they just had to justify putting them together. But the CTS-V wagon buyer was probably motivated to seek that model out. Volvo buyer who wants ventilated seats might not be motivated to navigate the dealer system just to get those. I was making the point that the system of buying cars in the US rewards having less options/combinations not more.

    17. #50
      Quote Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
      I was making the point that the system of buying cars in the US rewards having less options/combinations not more.
      Not sure about all the other stuff still confused however this I agree with 100%.

      Dealership wants minimum options so you buy the car they have as it will have the 2 options manufacturer allows based on what the original dealership ordered the cars with
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    18. #51
      Junior Member genesmasher's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by DFrantz View Post
      ...

      As for dealership involvement... we typically get full control, but there are several times Volvo pushes out a load of cars already locked in. That's why nearly every dealer got a 2019 Red R design as their first S60.... Volvo allocation is not fully open either... they lock in the trim level and motor and we can change the specs from there up to a certain date... sometimes they slip orders in without telling anyone and if a dealer is quick they catch it and make changes... if the sales manager doesn't pay much attention, they just show up.
      Sooooo, they only lock trim level and motor? Like I said, all my local dealers have in stock are T5 Momentum's, mostly in dull colors. At the same time, whenever they get a Bursting Blue R-design in stock, it garners a lot of interest - heard this time and time again, from multiple dealers. Seems to be a disconnect somewhere.
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    19. #52
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      The EV/battery posts can be found here: https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...ech-Discussion

      ////

      Its interesting to read community perspectives on Volvo Car USA, marketing and product planning. Knowing a couple friends who are product planners at Audi and VW, they are limited by what German allows and it appears similar with Sweden controlling the U.S. market. Have the complaints about a dull color pallet not made it across the pond yet?! The new C40 is supposed to have a fun blue but not as fun as Rebel Blue/Cyan Racing Blue. The SPAII cars will have a larger center stack screen, so for those hoping to get some buttons back, you may be disappointed.

      Logically it would seem if the parts are here at the U.S. plant for other markets, including ventilated seats as an option (a consumer cost), we should be able to order them. Product decisions do not always appear logical to enthusiast consumers but in the end decisions are based on data. Volvo marketing and branding struggled for many years - badging and trim level designations for example.

      While Volvo went storytelling with advertising the past few years, other brands presented practical safety messages in their marketing and now include similar safety technologies in their offerings. While Volvo may still lead in some areas of safety, the rest of the industry has been catching up and possibly exceeds Volvo with certain technologies, at a lower price point. Forward collision alert and auto braking seems common these days. Blind spot side camera views on the infotainment screen while using blinkers is an interesting feature with the Hyundai Sonata as is individual tire pressure values on the Jeep Wrangler - still don't understand why Volvo does not display this data instead of a colored dot next the wheel.

      The overall numbers for Volvo have been good and sales since 2016 have soared with the revised product line-up. 2020 has been difficult for many manufacturers and dealers. I hope the decontenting of the S60 allows the model to remain in the line-up. It is a good sedan and perhaps the product planners can keep it competitive.
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    20. #53
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      "individual tire pressure values on the Jeep Wrangler - still don't understand why Volvo does not display this data"

      Volvo switched to indirect TPMS and there are no sensors that measure pressure. For good (ease of wheel swapping) and bad (impossible to heave pressure readouts and I was chasing TPMS ghost - low pressure warning when all tires were perfect).

      Krzyś

    21. #54
      Quote Originally Posted by genesmasher View Post
      Sooooo, they only lock trim level and motor? Like I said, all my local dealers have in stock are T5 Momentum's, mostly in dull colors. At the same time, whenever they get a Bursting Blue R-design in stock, it garners a lot of interest - heard this time and time again, from multiple dealers. Seems to be a disconnect somewhere.
      I think you are selecting only the pieces that match what you want.


      And you contradict yourself in your post.

      The reason why only T5 momentum was in dull collars are on your dealers lot is because nobody wants those cars.

      Like you follow up and said that the blue R design in stock it’s gets sold out so they do get anything they want other than the model that I already mentioned in my post above to which I guess you missed from Volvo corporate themselves and not a sales guy.

      You also have the ability to as well as they do to do any type of special order for their inventory additional toward Volvo wants to keep them in stock for specific models.

      Again just to break it down how it looks Volvo size based on your previous orders you gonna have 10 V 60s to sales managers job is to review those orders and order them anyway he wants any trim any engine any collar that’s available.

      If he doesn’t do so just like mentioned above Volvo is just gonna put in random orders that they think is going to sell and ship them to your dealership.


      But that is not Volvo forcing them to sell those cars this is a sales manager of the dealership lot not doing his job
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    22. #55
      Junior Member lflorack's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by genesmasher View Post
      Like I said, all my local dealers have in stock are T5 Momentum's, mostly in dull colors. At the same time, whenever they get a Bursting Blue R-design in stock, it garners a lot of interest - heard this time and time again, from multiple dealers. Seems to be a disconnect somewhere.
      It seems to me that this might be an indication that those cars are on the lot because the other cars that are not like those that remain have already been sold. The cars that remain on the lot are not as popular for one or more possible reasons - which may or may not be for the reason(s) you think.
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    23. #56
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      Guessing the trade in value on my wife's ultra low mileage (~30k) 2012 T6 S60 just went up.

      That car is still a blast to drive.

    24. #57
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      Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but not only has the R-Design badge been dropped from the steering wheel, but altogether. There is now no R-Design Badge on the rear of the vehicle. Therefore... how does one know the car is an actual R-Design vs. an R-Design Expression, etc.

      I say etc. because I also learned that not only did they come out with an Expression Trim for the R-Design, but there is also an Inscription Expression Trim... interesting choices Volvo.

      If I were the user with the R-Design on order, I would be ordering an R-Design Badge from the Parts Department as we speak.

      Also @[email protected] , is there actually going to be a C40? I thought they were coming out with a coupe based XC90? Is the C40 going to be a coupe based XC40, or an Coupe/Convertible/Hatchback like previous C-designated models?
      Last edited by MJEWETT; 09-23-2020 at 10:37 AM.

    25. #58
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      I added Polestar to my XC90 Momentum 2016 and feels like an European car should be but still cannot understand how Volvo didn't add the Steering Paddles. I just can't, cheaper competitors have this as standard.

    26. #59
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      website this morning still offers T6 if you build a S60 R-Design...
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    27. #60
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      Quote Originally Posted by MJEWETT View Post
      Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but not only has the R-Design badge been dropped from the steering wheel, but altogether. There is now no R-Design Badge on the rear of the vehicle. Therefore... how does one know the car is an actual R-Design vs. an R-Design Expression, etc.
      Yup there is a lot of rambling here to wade through but I did notice and mention that. The scuff plates with "R-Design" are gone as well. All branding for R-Design is gone. I checked real quick on the other models, looks like the same, all R-Design branding removed across the board.

      Quote Originally Posted by R-Design M&M View Post
      website this morning still offers T6 if you build a S60 R-Design...
      You know how up to date and accurate Volvos website is ;-) Somewhere in the thread here it was confirmed from dealerships, I think dfrantz confirmed, so it's reliable info. There are a lot of T6s in stock though, so Volvo may not want to remove it from the website since you can still get them even if production has stopped.
      Last edited by Power6; 09-23-2020 at 11:35 AM.

    28. #61
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      Quote Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
      I added Polestar to my XC90 Momentum 2016 and feels like an European car should be but still cannot understand how Volvo didn't add the Steering Paddles. I just can't, cheaper competitors have this as standard.
      Yep, especially with the problems that Volvo 4-cylinders have with shifting much of the time. It's one reason why I chose a new USD $53k 2019 Macan over a new 2019 Volvo last year when those were my two choices, as the Macan comes standard with paddle shifters on the steering wheel. Really is practical to quickly help the car when it needs a bit of help shifting.

    29. #62
      I would never guess that shift paddle is such a huge deal.

      I definitely would rather have it then not have it but me personally I would not walk away from a deal if I car did not have it.

      Not trying to second guess what’s important for some if that is what you need in the car I fully agree that is important for you and you should get a car with it I am just honestly surprised as to how many people think that the car requires a paddle shifters if we’re talking about a four-door safety sedan and nothing that is actually performance labeled or a real performance model.

      If you would tell me that Audi S4 or SLine A4 If you would tell me that Audi S4 would not come with paddle shifters I would be surprised but A Volvo would never consider it
      Last edited by Kamil; 09-23-2020 at 12:56 PM.
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    30. #63
      I agree that I'm surprised the shift paddles being removed garnered such a negative response. Everyone complains how poorly they work, and I doubt they are used very often (or never) buy 99% of owners. Still, it seems a simple inexpensive thing to do on the R-Design especially, but i guess every penny counts right now. I rarely use the shift paddles even on my R8 V10.....it's more marketing than a daily useful item.

      I know I mentioned it before, but other companies are really doing this as well (to the detriment to us enthusiasts). Audi is a great example. Go build a 2021 Audi A4 and compare that to what could be built in 2017. Entire packages are gone, colors eliminated, subtle changes (like the Virtual Cockpit digital dash removed the temperature and full gauges and combined it into the main screen, leaving a goofy looking huge bezel around the digital dash) are all over. Fewer leather colors, ventilated seats only come in black, upgraded leather quality more restricted, no more sport suspension, no more adaptive ride control, no more variety of wood trim to choose from (tied to interior color just like Volvo.)

      The entire industry is streamlining to reduces expenses. It's really sad for us brand enthusiast to see lots of the key reasons why we buy a product slip away... What you gonna do? Yes....i'll be ordering a number of "R-Design" components from the parts department when my ordered car arrives.

    31. #64
      Quote Originally Posted by VolvoFaRmeR View Post
      I agree that I'm surprised the shift paddles being removed garnered such a negative response. Everyone complains how poorly they work, and I doubt they are used very often (or never) buy 99% of owners. Still, it seems a simple inexpensive thing to do on the R-Design especially, but i guess every penny counts right now. I rarely use the shift paddles even on my R8 V10.....it's more marketing than a daily useful item.

      I know I mentioned it before, but other companies are really doing this as well (to the detriment to us enthusiasts). Audi is a great example. Go build a 2021 Audi A4 and compare that to what could be built in 2017. Entire packages are gone, colors eliminated, subtle changes (like the Virtual Cockpit digital dash removed the temperature and full gauges and combined it into the main screen, leaving a goofy looking huge bezel around the digital dash) are all over. Fewer leather colors, ventilated seats only come in black, upgraded leather quality more restricted, no more sport suspension, no more adaptive ride control, no more variety of wood trim to choose from (tied to interior color just like Volvo.)

      The entire industry is streamlining to reduces expenses. It's really sad for us brand enthusiast to see lots of the key reasons why we buy a product slip away... What you gonna do? Yes....i'll be ordering a number of "R-Design" components from the parts department when my ordered car arrives.

      Completely agreed.

      What’s even worse is that they completely don’t understand the customer.

      They’re making cars look fast but are actually slow.

      They’re making huge cars on the outside but are actually very tiny on the inside without any usable compartments or storage

      Anything that is labeled as Performance or “sport” automatically removes any comfort features like massaging seats or cooling seats that is simply not available if you want to buy anything that is labeled as performance level

      And little less annoying things like black piano plastic trim everywhere and touchscreens everything
      2020 V60 CC 1 of 4 Crystal white with Amber interior and the only 1 with parking assist.

    32. #65
      Junior Member irollturbo's Avatar
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      I rented a BMW 330i and drove it 2000 miles in 3 days. It was eye opening. Fantastic handling, responsive, great ride, plenty of room, and easy to achieve 42mpg plus. I can see why the S60 is struggling.
      V70R -04 MT, 18" IPD Pegs, IPD Tune, IPD DP+Cat back, FMIC, Eibachs, IPD Sways
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    33. #66
      Quote Originally Posted by irollturbo View Post
      I rented a BMW 330i and drove it 2000 miles in 3 days. It was eye opening. Fantastic handling, responsive, great ride, plenty of room, and easy to achieve 42mpg plus. I can see why the S60 is struggling.
      Well the S60 starts at MSRP 38$ When the 330i is at 41$

      Wonder how it would compere with similar options.

      But I agree plenty of better sedans at the price point
      2020 V60 CC 1 of 4 Crystal white with Amber interior and the only 1 with parking assist.

    34. #67
      Junior Member irollturbo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Well the S60 starts at MSRP 38$ When the 330i is at 41$

      Wonder how it would compere with similar options.

      But I agree plenty of better sedans at the price point
      That $38k S60 really can't compete with the BMW 330i. It would have taken the T6 as the starting point. The S60 gives FWD/AWD...I guess that matters to people who deal with snow, although the BMW can also be had with AWD. The S60 interior might be a bit nicer. But it is completely outclassed in handling, response, and fuel economy. The S60 might ride a bit better, but that's a matter of preference. I found the base 330i suspension a bit too soft.

      In it's favor, the resale on the S60 is so terrible that is hard to get something nicer used for the price.
      Last edited by irollturbo; 09-23-2020 at 07:18 PM.
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    35. #68
      I have a completely different take on the BMW 330i. The car is a total disappointment. I the looks are generic and nothing about it is exciting. The interior has a few great design ideas, but it sure doesn't seem special to me. All sorts of gimmicks inside the backward tach and finger gesture and the like. The build quietly is not as good as the volvo, especially the interior. Yes BMW is fast (they underrate the motors and I don't see how they don't get sued for lying). I don't find its handling all that great, certainly not head and shoulders above the BMW. The BMW as more road noise. When it comes to price....the thing skyrockets with options. A comparable "loaded" car is more than a $10,000 when I was considering the 3 series. It's resale is atrocious, and it actually made the list of top 10 fastest depreciating cars. The BMW forums are littered with problems, is just terrible. The Volvo is best in class in a variety of metrics if you ask me. Volvo's 4-cylinder is one of the best motors in the world, and it has the award to prove it. Sure, it's not the fastest or sounds great but it is proving to be very reliable, efficient and a very powerful motor that meets most buyers needs. I mean, I'm stepping down from 532 hp to the T6, and I think its a very strong performer. It also amazes me at it's composure in quick maneuvers. The S60 is a woefully underrated car, and I have a lot of car friends that have driven or rode in my mom's T6 when I've had it and they are very impressed with the car. The Volvo is not always the best at everything, but it's a blend of being extremely good at all things. I'm surprised at the harsh criticism here. I'e had many A4 loaner cars, and the S60 is notable nicer than those cars.

    36. #69
      Junior Member irollturbo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by VolvoFaRmeR View Post
      I have a completely different take on the BMW 330i. The car is a total disappointment. I the looks are generic and nothing about it is exciting. The interior has a few great design ideas, but it sure doesn't seem special to me. All sorts of gimmicks inside the backward tach and finger gesture and the like. The build quietly is not as good as the volvo, especially the interior. Yes BMW is fast (they underrate the motors and I don't see how they don't get sued for lying). I don't find its handling all that great, certainly not head and shoulders above the BMW. The BMW as more road noise. When it comes to price....the thing skyrockets with options. A comparable "loaded" car is more than a $10,000 when I was considering the 3 series. It's resale is atrocious, and it actually made the list of top 10 fastest depreciating cars. The BMW forums are littered with problems, is just terrible. The Volvo is best in class in a variety of metrics if you ask me. Volvo's 4-cylinder is one of the best motors in the world, and it has the award to prove it. Sure, it's not the fastest or sounds great but it is proving to be very reliable, efficient and a very powerful motor that meets most buyers needs. I mean, I'm stepping down from 532 hp to the T6, and I think its a very strong performer. It also amazes me at it's composure in quick maneuvers. The S60 is a woefully underrated car, and I have a lot of car friends that have driven or rode in my mom's T6 when I've had it and they are very impressed with the car. The Volvo is not always the best at everything, but it's a blend of being extremely good at all things. I'm surprised at the harsh criticism here. I'e had many A4 loaner cars, and the S60 is notable nicer than those cars.
      I agree with much of what you said. Too bad the T6 is gone. That's a total disappointment as well. I had an absolute blast in that BMW driving over mountain roads. I doubt the S60 would have left me feeling the same. The Volvo engine might have awards to its name but it is also noted as being surprisingly fuel inefficient. I would not call it extremely good at that. Now, would I buy the BMW? I'm not so sure for the maintenance reasons you mentioned. It's not called the ultimate leasing machine for nothing. However, if you judge by forum comments it's really hard to praise the current Volvos either. Sensus anyone? I'll still put Volvo on top for safety. That can make up for a lot of other shortcomings. But the 112mph thing just shows that they are running out of ideas there too. I don't view the criticism as harsh. It is an act of kindness to help them understand why the the factory is sitting idle.
      Last edited by irollturbo; 09-23-2020 at 08:46 PM.
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    37. #70
      I don't understand these inefficient claims. Yes....if all you do is stop and go driving it's not great. Neither is the BMW. Name another 300+ hp car with AWD that gets 35-40 MPG on EVERY highway trip. My mom's T6 has averaged 28 mpg since our ownership of 5,000 miles. That's notably better than my TT could do, and it weighs a lot loss, is a lot smaller and had the same amount of power. MY best friend has 3 Golf Alltracks with less than 200 hp. Again, smaller car, less weight and AWD with lower power and his best highway average has been 28 on all 3 of the Alltracks he owns.

      Why is Sensus so bad. Literally the majority of the Auto Press call it the best (or one of the best) systems to date. So it had some bugs in 2016 but today? What's the issue? It's fast, easy to use, shows what I need, integrates CarPlay amazingly well. My mom is nearly 70 and she had it mastered in a week. I have a LOT of time using iDrive and MB Command and Audi VC and Ford Sync and Chevys system, and I'd call Sensus better than all of them but maybe Audi and BWM. Volvo has significantly fewer submenues than the Audi or BMW. Sensus has faults, as does other parts of the S60 for sure.

      But I worked in the industry for a long time and have driven almost every car under the sun and the S60 is phenomenal in most regards. Best headlights in the business, best safety system in the business, practical, quick on it's feet. Other brands hi light other attributes, but Volvo blends them all....at a lower price. If you want a sportier experience have you actually driven a car with the sport suspension that is around 40% stiffer? It's a pretty big difference than the standard car, and I think people that find the handling lacking don't have the right suspension in the car they bought (and that's not the car's fault). There are a lot of reviewers out there that heap praise on the handling-comfort combination that few other cars offer.

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