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    1. #36
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      whoops

      And I thought this was a Volvo . . .


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    3. #37
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      look at the brake caliper you will see same sign... and all around the parts inside the dash

    4. #38
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      More stuff comes off

      I managed to remove the plastic portion of the intake manifold and the oil filter housing tonight. Holy sludge! A lot of it is in the tube that runs from the cam cover down to the top of the oil filter housing.

      There is also a bunch in the upper most housing-block port and the 3rd lowest housing-block port.

      It looks as though the O-ring isn't doing it's job. This picture was taken right after I removed the part. There seems too be a lot of fine dust, almost sand, in the engine bay. And it looks like it's making it's way into the oil system.

      The 90deg elbow that takes the air from the oil filter housing back to the cast part of the intake manifold looks pretty clean. But given the amount of crap everywhere else any "calibrated orifice" is surely clogged. So I guess tomorrow off comes the cast intake manifold. Funny thing though, the oil filter looks pretty clean.

      Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »
      The thing to check, and it isn't easy, is the manifold gasket and the airways leading to it. They are calibrated holes, and if they get gummed up, replacing the oil trap and relief valve/PCV isn't going to make much of a difference. In other words, to do the job right, the manifold probably ought to come off too.

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    6. #39
      Global Moderator tmtalpey's Avatar
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      Re: More stuff comes off (GoBerserk)

      This is great stuff - keep the info coming! I'd be very surprised if the issue were as simple as a bad o-ring. It would have to be a gaping hole to let in that much sand, especially with the (usually) positive pressure of the crankcase. Also I don't see a lot of goo on the outside of the block.

      When you say "the tube that runs from the cam cover", do you mean the little elbow that's visible between cylinders 2 and 3, right next to the round spot in the center of the cover? I've always wondered why that's just soft rubber. Was there any misalignment or damage to it?

      [edit] When you get the manifold off can you check something? The manifold gasket in the T5 has reed valves across the ports that introduce the crankcase gases. If these reed valves are damaged, or otherwise aren't working properly, then it's possible for combustion gases to come back into the oil trap. There is also, I believe, a line to the turbocharger from this general area. Check them all for damage or signs of reverse flow and maybe take pics too...

      Tom.


      Modified by tmtalpey at 8:03 AM 8-17-2007

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    7. #40
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      Re: More stuff comes off (tmtalpey)

      Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »
      This is great stuff - keep the info coming! I'd be very surprised if the issue were as simple as a bad o-ring. It would have to be a gaping hole to let in that much sand, especially with the (usually) positive pressure of the crankcase. Also I don't see a lot of goo on the outside of the block.

      True.

      Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »

      When you say "the tube that runs from the cam cover", do you mean the little elbow that's visible between cylinders 2 and 3, right next to the round spot in the center of the cover?

      I was referring to what I would describe as a long snorkel-like tube. I've outlined it in this picture.

      Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »
      I've always wondered why that's just soft rubber. Was there any misalignment or damage to it?

      It looks pretty good. There are some hardened features in the molding that secure it to the intake manifold and protect it from rubbing through.


    8. #41
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      Re: More stuff comes off (GoBerserk)

      imo MOST of that sand fell in when you took the sucker off... if this sand was leaked for a while you would find it all over upstream.. BTW great work!!!


      Modified by Oldman at 7:39 AM 8-17-2007

    9. #42
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      Got the intake manifold off.

      I managed to get the cast intake manifold off this morning. It really wasn't so bad. There is a nifty bicycle tube valve at the end of the fuel rail so you can depressurize the system. Then it's just a handful of bolts, disconnect the hard fuel line, and Voila!

      So here's a picture of the block side of the intake manifold. I've tried to show the passages that relate to the air return from the oil/air separator. You're looking at the manifold as if you were seated in the car and it was bolted to the engine but the whole rest of the car was invisible.

      Here you can see oil in the square passage for cylinder 5 (counting from the passenger's side).

      Hello fuel injector nozzle!

      Here are the intake passages on the block. The intake manifold gasket is still on. You can see the 5 orifices that meter the air back to the intake runners.

      Here's a closeup of cylinders 1 and 2. There is an awful lot of oil up here considering there is a oil/air separator prior to this.

      Intake valves. Shiny. Cool!

      Here's 1 and 2 without the gasket. Notice the passage that takes the air from the orifice back to the runner.


    10. #43
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      Disceting the Oil/Air Separator / Oil Filter housing

      Well I decided to take apart the oil filter housing to see what the deal was. It's kinda hard to describe. I imagine it will be hard to understand without the parts in your hands to play with - but I'll do my best

      Housing together . . .

      . . . and apart

      Here are the ports on the block again. I numbered them starting with the highest up.

      Looking down into the oil filter section. You can see light shining through the ports which I numbered corresponding to the ones on the block.

      The oil separator passages.

      Here's a description of the ports on the separator. What we can't see in this view are the ports from the main chamber into the cyclones. And we can't see how the air gets from the cyclones up to the return hose. Apparently there is a valve in there.

      The same thing as above but a different view. Now we can see the cyclone entryways.

      An even better view of the cyclones.

      I'm having a hard time understanding how this whole thing works - from a pressure standpoint. Given that the chamber is connected to the top of the head and to the crankcase we must assume then that the pressure is constant throughout the block and head but excluding the intake and exhaust manifolds and the combustion chambers. This pressurized air enters the cyclones to drain off the oil. Then the air travels back up to the intake manifold which must be at a lower pressure. And the oil drains back into the oil pan. I was having a hard time understanding why the oil would flow at all because of the pressurized air. But it's the same pressure on both sides of the cyclone. As long as the surface area is the same or greater on the top side the oil will flow or be forced out the bottom of the cyclone and back to the block.

      So I'm a little lost too as to where the problem is. The snorkel tube from the cam cover is not clogged. The cast part of the oil filter housing has large ports and non of that is clogged. The intake manifold gasket and it's orifices look fine. So it must be somewhere in the oil/air separator. There must be a clog in there that's not allowing the air to travel back up to the intake manifold.


    11. #44
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      I tried taking the cap off where you can see my fingers on the last picture above. But it's glued on pretty good because I started to mangle the plastic. Well, I'm probably buying a new one of these anyway so I guess I just break it off.

    12. #45
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      Re: Got the intake manifold off. (GoBerserk)

      WOW most excellent. I'm amazed that liquid oil is up on the manifold boss, clearly the cyclones aren't working. Yes, they'll be inside the plastic thingy, and even if you could clean them, they should be replaced.

      Supposedly in the can too is a reed valve with a spring. I predict it's stuck. Maybe it's as simple as that - stuck open, too much flow through the system and oil spray goes up the pipe.

      Keep digging!

      Tom.

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    13. #46
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      Re: Got the intake manifold off. (tmtalpey)

      Just as a "FYI" turbocharged diesel engines just run their blowby from somplace like the valve cover or cam follower cover since they're mostly cam-in-block with LONG pushrods & rocker arms into the inlet airstream between the air filter and turbocharger. Normally some sort of mesh is used to filter out large droplets of oil vapor and it drains back into the oil pan via gravity. The oil vapor runs thru the turbo and gets "MIXED" with the compressed combustion air and then either blows into the combustion chamber through the intake manifold & ports in the head or it enters the intercooler first which can be either air to water or air to air depending on the engine.

      Still looks to Me like Volvo is trying to "Micro-Manage" something with this "Contraption" Wouldn't be so bad if it worked but it looks to Me like it doesn't!


    14. #47
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      Is that diaphragm supposed to be cracked?

      Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »
      Supposedly in the can too is a reed valve with a spring. I predict it's stuck.

      Right on the former , wrong on the latter (but good a guess).

      I really hated the idea that I would order a new part not knowing that the one I was replacing was actually broken. So I decided that cap was coming off, come hell or high water. I gouged it up pretty good but in the end I won

      Here's what I found, you can see the diaphragm and spring along with the cap.

      Here's a look inside where the diaphragm was. You can see the three tops of the cyclones. There is a lot of grit in there.

      Here's the diaphragm a little closer.

      And here's the problem!!! The diaphragm is torn/cracked. It's possible that I did that while taking it all apart. But it would certainly explain why it wasn't working.

      Another look.


      I went down to my Volvo dealer and ordered a new Oil Filter housing and a new intake manifold gasket. I can re-use the snorkel tube and they confirmed that I should just get some regular worm-screw hose clamps instead of the fancy ones Volvo uses at the factory. I got a new oil filter too. As far as tightening everything back up I asked about torque specs and the tech said "snug". While talking with the tech it really surprised me how casual he was about this PCV problem. He was like "yeah, they all do it [break]. We do a lot of those. You better make sure the housing's not back-ordered." I also asked about all the grit and the service guys said that's how it's supposed to be - more of a trap than an oil/air separator. I was going to point out that I thought that was the purpose of the oil filter but decided against it.

      I wonder if the reason there has been no recall yet is that it's not really a safety related problem. It's harder to get sued for a whistling PCV than it is for a fuel line that rubs through or a seat belt bracket that breaks during a collision.

      Although I took apart a bunch more than was needed I at least have the piece of mind knowing that it will be fixed and nothing else is busted. The orifices on the intake gasket are pretty large. And I think it would be unlikely that all four of them be totally clogged. And there is nothing but the top of the snorkel under the plastic intake manifold. So knowing all of that, none of the intake past the throttle has to come out. And the airbox could probably just be moved to the driver's side. You'd limit your working room a bit but it would save a lot of disassembly.


    15. #48
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      Oh yeah - the tech I spoke with confirmed that it's the diaphragm that usually breaks resulting in the failure.

    16. #49
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      Re: (GoBerserk)

      OK, so the only thing that needs to be replaced is the oil filter housing that also incorporates the oil separator and that diaphragm that breaks? I assume Volvo does not sell the plastic part separately.

      What's your impression, does the diaphragm break due to the constant vibration when the engine is running or because of some sort of overpressure if the cyclones get clogged first?

      BTW, excellent work and pictures!

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    17. #50
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      Re: (FinnSpeed)

      Yeah. The combined oil filter housing/oil separator is what needs to be replaced. You're correct in that it's all one unit. I don't even recall seeing a part number on the cast aluminum portion.

      I can't really say why it breaks. There is surely a lot of vibration. I'm not sure of the frequency with which it opens and closes. I would think it opens when you start the car and closes when the car is off. But then I don't know why it would be a diaphragm at all. It's possible the diaphragm isn't design correctly. Maybe it's too big, or folds funny when in use. Maybe it's the wrong material. Or there was a problem with the mold. Maybe it's too thin?


    18. #51
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      Re: (GoBerserk)

      Ok, thanks.

      I tried to understand from the pictures how the reed valve operates but I'm still not sure. It is capable of closing the air way to the intake and it looks like it would be open if the engine is off, held by the spring.

      The question is, will it open and close constantly when the engine is running following the rpm or does it just follow the intake pressure which in turn is affected by the other reed valves in the gasket... Oh well...

      In case the diaphragm is broken I guess it will never close, letting everything to blow through towards the intake.

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      Re: (GoBerserk)

      looks like a glorified PCV valve boost backwash preventer, it it were me I'd just glue the cap back on with no rubber BS and look at installing a PCV in a loop between all this junk the the intake manifold...

    20. #53
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      Re: (Oldman)

      Hmmm...

      That might actually work, if you can find a valve that operates roughly at the same pressure difference as the original diaphragm.

      Also, I'm guessing again but most probably those cyclones are not that complicated and it should be fairly easy to check if they are clogged or not. The incoming air/oil mixture enters from top causing rotating flow inside. The oil eventually falls down and the air goes up with some residual fumes. Of course there's no point unless Oldman's suggestion works.

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    21. #54
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      Re: (FinnSpeed)

      Well we can see the center tube is what flows to the intake manifold, the outside are vents that lead back to the head. When there is pressure in the outer case the diaphragm is lifted away from the center and gases pass into the center tube and into the intake. A spring holds this in the open position. So it looks that if the diaphragm is broken then this sucker should be in the open position allowing MAX flow.

      Same goes for a backfire would shoot thru the center tube and lift the diaphragm which would allow the flame to blow up the crank case. For some reason this valve seems to work in the opposite way of what I think it should work / do??


    22. #55
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      Re: Is that diaphragm supposed to be cracked? (GoBerserk)

      Quote, originally posted by GoBerserk »
      I also asked about all the grit and the service guys said that's how it's supposed to be - more of a trap than an oil/air separator. I was going to point out that I thought that was the purpose of the oil filter but decided against it.

      The oil filter is keeping the oil clean from the oilpump to the bearings. If you had this much grit in there, it would have lunched everything. The grit you're seeing is basically from the top of the motor, it's carbon mainly, and it is intentionally being sucked into that chamber and trapped. The last place you want it is inside the engine where the filter can grab it.

      Quote »
      The orifices on the intake gasket are pretty large. And I think it would be unlikely that all four of them be totally clogged. And there is nothing but the top of the snorkel under the plastic intake manifold.

      I'd blast out the carbon from the manifold passages with some good carburetor cleaner spray anyway. And be careful about that dust on the front of the motor, all those nooks and crannies can hold a lot. Might be best to not attempt to clean it, with the ports wide open, instead being careful putting the housing back.

      When the techs said "they all do it", did they mean all the S40/V50's, or a wider range of Volvo motors? The oil system on the B5254T3 is pretty different from others, though the basic idea is similar.

      Tom.

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    23. #56
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      Re: (Oldman)

      Quote, originally posted by Oldman »
      For some reason this valve seems to work in the opposite way of what I think it should work / do?? …

      I think the thing to realize is that the top of the diaphragm (under the cap) is at constant atmospheric pressure. So, if the crankcase pressure is higher than atm, the diaphragm lifts and opens the port allowing separated crankcase air to escape to the manifold.

      A backfire would push pretty hard on the diaphragm from below, but it would be funneled down to a pretty small tube, stifling it, and as GoBerserk found, the cap is on there pretty well, so it's not going to fly out. Kind of blowing an internal raspberry if you see what I mean.

      In this top view of the guts, the fitting on the left is crankcase gasses from the cam cover, the elbow on the right is going to the manifold, and the diaphragm is covering/sealing the hole in the very center. I bet there's a check valve in the housing where the elbow comes in at the right too.

      Simple enough. Now - what tore the diaphragm?

      Tom.

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    24. #57
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      Re: (tmtalpey)

      agree, but as noted above even if the diaphragm is broken it looks like the spring would hold the thing open and there would be max flow from crankcase to intake. So why is this leading to a clog system when you would assume this would lead to a FULL OPEN system. Maybe it is full open and ends up drawing way too much oil which then clogs the separators. Kinds of like constant full leads to full clogged upstream… As a side note since this thing breaks to full open, I would assume it would no longer function as a anti-backfire valve.. a crazy design.

    25. #58
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      Re: Another Squealer -What should I do?- (GoBerserk)

      So the question is, what is making the squealing noise?

      Is it just air passing through the cracked diaphragm? Or the cam bearings from inadequate lubrication due to the pressure in the crankcase? Is it possible that the buildup of crankcase pressure can reduce the oil pump's ability to lubricate the valve-train? You wouldn't trip a low oil pressure switch since there really would be oil pressure exiting the oil pump.


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      Re: (FinnSpeed)

      I really doubt that those cyclones would clog. It doesn't seem like the holes are very small. But they would be easy to check.

      As far as boost backwash is concerned: I have the naturally aspirated 2.4l. So no boost. But it would close under boost. The spring holds the diaphragm open. So with equal pressure on both sides the air goes right up to the intake. When the crankcase has more pressure it is also open. The only time it closes is when the intake has more pressure than the crankcase - as when it's under boost for a turbo.

      So what would a torn gasket do in a naturally aspirated engine? Since the spring holds it open, either low pressure in the crank case or high pressure in the intake would normally close the diaphragm. But if it's torn it will never close. So clearly, in order to operate correctly the valve must close at some point.


    27. #60
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      Re: Is that diaphragm supposed to be cracked? (tmtalpey)

      Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »
      When the techs said "they all do it", did they mean all the S40/V50's, or a wider range of Volvo motors? The oil system on the B5254T3 is pretty different from others, though the basic idea is similar.

      He was referring to the S40/V50s only.


    28. #61
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      Re: (Oldman)

      Quote, originally posted by Oldman »
      agree, but as noted above even if the diaphragm is broken it looks like the spring would hold the thing open and there would be max flow from crankcase to intake. So why is this leading to a clog system when you would assume this would lead to a FULL OPEN system.

      Oldman's right. With equal pressure on both sides the diaphragm is held up (by the spring) away from the center port.


    29. #62
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      Re: (Oldman)

      Quote, originally posted by Oldman »
      agree, but as noted above even if the diaphragm is broken it looks like the spring would hold the thing open and there would be max flow from crankcase to intake.

      Only when the crankcase pressure exceeds the manifold pressure. With the valve open, the reverse flow can happen just as easily.

      I guess I didn't realize GoBerserk's car was a 2.4i, now that I see the manifold gasket has no reed valves that makes sense - no boost to hold back.

      RedV50 - I think the squealing could be any number of sources. In your case I thought you blew out cam seals, which means the pressure wasn't venting at all. So, yours was clogged and/or the valve was stuck shut. Somewhat different I think, IOW.

      Tom.

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    30. #63
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      Re: (GoBerserk)

      Quote, originally posted by GoBerserk »
      IThe only time it closes is when the intake has more pressure than the crankcase - as when it's under boost for a turbo.

      I don't think so, the only thing that moves the diaphragm is the relative difference between crankcase and atmospheric.

      Tom.

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      Re: Another Squealer -What should I do?- (RedV50)

      Quote, originally posted by RedV50 »
      So the question is, what is making the squealing noise?

      Is it just air passing through the cracked diaphragm? Or the cam bearings from inadequate lubrication due to the pressure in the crankcase? Is it possible that the buildup of crankcase pressure can reduce the oil pump's ability to lubricate the valve-train? You wouldn't trip a low oil pressure switch since there really would be oil pressure exiting the oil pump.

      Your cam seals blew out right? Was the loss of oil there the cause for your cam bearing failure? Really the question I want to ask is: has anyone whose cam seals haven't failed had a oil delivery problem?

      Which essentially goes back to the original question of what is the squealing noise? It seems like it could be an air noise. Either through the diaphragm or through the small vents in the top of the diaphragm housing. But then again it sounds like a bad bearing too.


    32. #65
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      Re: (tmtalpey)

      Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »

      I don't think so, the only thing that moves the diaphragm is the relative difference between crankcase and atmospheric.

      Tom.

      I would not say "only" but "most of the time". If the valve is closed (crank case at lower pressure than atmosphere) then it seals the center tube which is connected to the intake. Now the intake pressure has an area of action on the diaphragm. So if the intake pressure goes up high enough it's conceivable that it would push the diaphragm off the center port. The crank case has a lot more acting area than the intake. So the pressure would have to be pretty high in comparison.


    33. #66
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      Well, if there is a check valve then the the intake can't force the diaphragm open. But then the crankcase gas will have a hard time pushing open that check valve if there is higher pressure there. But on a naturally aspirated engine there is usually less than 1 atm in the intake manifold. Only in the event of a back fire would there be greater than 1 atm. So it's sucking on the oil separator most of the time. Which raises another scenario. If the diaphragm is closed and there is low pressure at the intake manifold (FWIW my Miata pulls 20-25 in Hg less than atmospheric at idle) And the crankcase was at 1 atm the valve would be held closed by the intake vacuum.

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      Re: (tmtalpey)

      Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »

      RedV50 - I think the squealing could be any number of sources. In your case I thought you blew out cam seals, which means the pressure wasn't venting at all. So, yours was clogged and/or the valve was stuck shut. Somewhat different I think, IOW.

      Yes my cam seals did blow out. I assume the crankcase pressure just deformed and destroyed them. But the squealing sound did sound like it was coming from the cam bearings or at least under the valve cover. Yea I can see how that cracked diaphragm can make a lot of noise, but I don't think it was the noise I was hearing.


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      Re: Another Squealer -What should I do?- (GoBerserk)

      Quote, originally posted by GoBerserk »
      Was the loss of oil there the cause for your cam bearing failure?

      I didn't have cam bearing failure.


    36. #69
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      Re: Another Squealer -What should I do?- (RedV50)

      I just had to drop my car off at the dealer for the problem, I should have it back today in the evening. Ill put up a post on what they replaced.

    37. #70
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      Re: Another Squealer -What should I do?- (Wish2k)

      Just FYI:

      I visited my dealer to take care of a minor warranty issue and happened to spot a work order for a Volvo S80, unfortunately it did not list which engine. It said: Recall PCV...

      Volvo V50 T5 M6 FWD Passion Red. Premium Audio, Dension Gateway, Climate pack, Nokian Z summers, Nokian R winters, BSR Stage 1, Digital boost gauge.

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